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Dr. Strang: Further to that point of order, Madam Speaker. That is just not good enough. The House of Commons has taken an historic decision. It has passed a motion rejecting--[Interruption.] It has failed. [Interruption.]
Madam Speaker: Order. I will not allow further debate on this matter. If the hon. Gentleman has a point of order, I must of course hear it.
Dr. Strang: The Government have been defeated. That is the important point. It is all very well for the right hon. and learned Gentleman to say that Ministers will pay due attention. [Interruption.]
Madam Speaker: Order. The House listened to the Minister and what he said was not precisely a point of order. Hon. Members will be tolerant and will listen to the hon. Gentleman for a moment.
Dr. Strang: The House has rejected the Government's position on fisheries policy. The right hon. and learned Gentleman did not take part in the debate and he cannot just jump up to the Dispatch Box and tell us that the Government will pay due attention. They have to address the issues in the debate, and they relate to the additional access of Spanish fishing vessels to our western waters. There has been a repudiation of the Government's policy and the Government are answerable to the House. They have lost the confidence of the House in relation to representing our interests in the European Union in fisheries and also in relation to their whole approach to fisheries policy. It is not good enough for the right hon. and learned Gentleman to talk about what will happen in the Fisheries Council.
Madam Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman and the Minister are experienced parliamentarians. Proper points of order are not being put to me and I cannot allow the debate to continue in this way. I propose to move to the next item of business.
Mr. A. J. Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed): On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: Is it a genuine point of order?
Mr. Beith: It is. I hope that you will confirm that a Government motion setting out the Government's negotiating position has been defeated and that when a Minister goes to Brussels to take part in negotiations he cannot represent the position that is set out in that motion as being the position that was approved by the House. He will have to convey to the meeting the fact that the House rejects the Government's position and wants a stronger stand, and he will have to make clear to the meeting that he has lost the confidence of the House, as have his Government.
Mr. Salmond: Further to that point of order, Madam Speaker. Should not we ask for a Government statement
tomorrow? The Government have failed to carry their position on a vital industry. The Minister told us that that does not matter and that the Government will carry on as before. Does that not represent contempt for the House in the same way as contempt for the fishing communities has been the Government's undoing?
Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman (Lancaster): Further to that point of order, Madam Speaker. The House also rejected the Labour-Liberal amendment.
Madam Speaker: Order. The debate has taken place and the House has made its views known in a Division. It is now up to the Government to determine their position. I now propose to move to other business. [Interruption.] Will hon. Members who are leaving the Chamber please do so quietly.
ROYAL ASSENT
Madam Speaker: I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has signified Her Royal Assent to the following Acts:
Consolidated Fund (No.2) Act 1995
Church of Scotland (Property and Endowment) Amendment Order Confirmation Act 1995
7.35 pm
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Tony Newton): I beg to move,
- That--
(1) Standing Order No. 94A (Scottish Grand Committee (composition and business)) be amended, as follows:
line 17, after 'consideration', insert 'or further consideration';
line 30, leave out from 'committee,' to 'Standing' in line 32 and insert 'made under paragraph (6) of';
line 33, at the end, add--
'(3) Any Minister of the Crown, being a Member of the House, though not a member of the committee, may take part in the deliberations of the committee and may make a motion, but shall not vote or be counted in the quorum.';
(2) Standing Order No. 94C (Scottish Grand Committee (short debates)) be amended, as follows:
line 8, leave out from 'to' to the end of line 9 and insert 'Scotland';
line 19, leave out from 'No' to 'replying' in line 20 and insert 'Member except the Minister of the Crown';
line 24, leave out 'minister or law officer' and insert 'Minister of the Crown';
line 25, leave out 'members of the committee' and insert 'Members';
line 27, leave out 'member of the committee' and insert 'Member';
(3) Standing Order No. 94D (Scottish Grand Committee (ministerial statements)) be amended, as follows:
line 2, leave out 'Scottish Office minister or a Scottish law officer' and insert 'Minister of the Crown';
line 3, leave out 'member of the committee' and insert 'Member of the House';
line 10, leave out 'minister or law officer, as the case may be,' and insert 'Minister of the Crown';
line 12, after 'responsibilities', insert 'so far as they relate to Scotland, which, in the case of a Scottish law officer, shall be';
line 13, leave out 'thirteenth' and insert 'relevant';
line 17, after 'conclusion', insert 'either at an hour appointed by an order of the committee, for which a motion may be made without notice by a member of the government immediately before the commencement of such proceedings, on which motion the question shall be put forthwith, or, if no such motion is made,';
line 31, leave out 'minister or law officer' and insert 'Minister of the Crown';
line 32, leave out 'member of the committee' and insert 'Member of the House';
line 34, leave out 'such a minister or law officer';
(4) Standing Order No. 94E (Scottish Grand Committee (bills in relation to their principle)) be amended in line 52, at the end, by adding the following paragraphs:
'(7) At the conclusion of proceedings on consideration on report of a bill in respect of which a report has been made under paragraph (3) above, or on the order being read for the third reading of such a bill, a motion may be made by a member of the government (or in the case of a private Member's bill, by the Member in charge of the bill), "That the Bill be referred again to the Scottish Grand Committee"; and the question thereon shall be put forthwith and may be decided at any hour, though opposed:
Provided that such a motion may be made by a private Member only with the leave of the House.
(8) A bill so referred again to the Scottish Grand Committee shall be considered on a motion, "That the Committee has further considered the bill in relation to its principle"; and, when the committee has considered that question for a total of one and a half hours (whether on one or more than one day), the chairman shall put the question necessary to dispose of the motion, and shall then report accordingly to the House (or shall report that the committee has come to no resolution), without any further question being put thereon:
Provided that a member of the government may, immediately before the motion "That the Committee has further considered the bill in relation to its principle" is made, make without notice a motion to extend the time-limit specified in this paragraph; and the question on such motion shall be put forthwith.
(9) A bill in respect of which a report has been made under paragraph (8) above shall be ordered to be read the third time on a future day.
(10) When a motion shall have been made for the third reading of a bill to which paragraph (9) above applies, the question thereon shall be put forthwith and may be decided at any hour, though opposed.';
(5) Standing Order No. 94H (Scottish Grand Committee (sittings)) be amended, as follows:
line 43, after 'proceedings', insert '(other than on a motion made under paragraph (6) below)';
line 55, after 'proceedings', insert 'or on the completion of the business appointed for consideration at that sitting, whichever is the earlier,';
(6) Standing Order No. 87 (Attendance of law officers and ministers in standing committees) be amended, in line 7, after 'than', by inserting 'a motion in the Scottish Grand Committee under Standing Order No. 94A (Scottish Grand Committee (composition and business)) or'; and
(7) Standing Order No. 91 (Special standing committees) be amended, as follows:
line 18, leave out 'morning sittings' and insert 'sittings at which oral evidence may be given';
line 19, after 'Scotland', insert 'in which case those sittings need not be held in the morning'.
The motion gives effect to two of the proposals that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland announced in the House on the eve of St. Andrew's day for strengthening the role of the Scottish Grand Committee in considering Scottish legislation and in calling Ministers to account. There is little that I need to add to the full explanation that my right hon. Friend gave on that occasion. I shall deal first with the two principal amendments to the Standing Orders.
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