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Mr. Newton: Does my hon. Friend envisage, in the world picture that he is painting, that the Leader of the Opposition would have to answer some questions?
Mr. Gallie: No, but it would only be fair to allow him to ask questions. I believe that the right hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair) is rather uninformed about Scottish matters, and it would do him the world of good to spend some time in the Scottish Grand Committee. I understand, in fact, that the right hon. Gentleman recently attended a dinner--Opposition Members might have called it an elitist dinner--addressed also by the hon. Member for
Hamilton (Mr. Robertson). The right hon. Member for Sedgefield made a speech at the dinner; its major sponsors, Global Video, placed an advertisement in the programme containing the words:
- "Wouldn't you rather be at home watching a video?"
8.17 pm
Mr. Archy Kirkwood (Roxburgh and Berwickshire): I was interested to hear the views of the hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Gallie), but I really do hope that we will not start head counting at Monday morning meetings of the Scottish Grand Committee. That might bring the whole process into some disrepute. To that extent I disagreed with the hon. Gentleman, and I disagreed with all his other suggestions as well.
I welcome these changes--as far as they go. It is certainly an improvement to be given notice of the dates for well into the new year. This has always been a difficulty for the minority parties. Discussions are held through the usual channels, but latterly they have become rather clogged up. I am pleased that the Secretary of State has cut through all that. He has set a timetable up to the summer, which everyone will welcome. Of course there are difficulties in travelling, but as long as the logistics can be sorted out there will be benefits. The Committee's deliberations will be taken to different parts of Scotland, which I welcome. The changes will give us more time and opportunity to consider some of the questions that are to the fore of public life north of the border.
The Leader of the House is a reasonable and enlightened man.
Mr. Michael Forsyth:
I was just saying the same about the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Kirkwood:
That is the end of both our careers.
The Leader of the House has not been in charge of the Government's programme throughout their term of office but, after 16 years, to introduce these changes as the answer to the constitutional deficit north of the border is inadequate. To describe them as inadequate is an understatement of some proportion. They do not measure up to what needs to be done.
If there is one thing that illustrates my point better than any other, it is the way in which the Government treat the different but very real problems of the Province of Northern Ireland. There is no suggestion that they will tinker with Standing Orders or that a Grand Committee will meet in Enniskillen, Derry or other parts of Northern Ireland. That is in stark contrast to the way in which they are coping with the situation in Scotland.
Mr. George Robertson:
Standing Order No. 99 states that there should be a Northern Ireland Grand Committee. It has two subsections. However, the Government's response to the situation in Northern Ireland, as the hon.
Mr. Kirkwood:
I hope that whoever will reply to the debate will address that point.
Mr. Michael Forsyth
indicated assent.
Mr. Kirkwood:
I am pleased that the Secretary of State will deal with that point, which is in many people's minds and deserves an answer.
Are these changes all that we will get? Is this the beginning of a continuing process? If it is, my hon. Friends and I are interested in engaging in it; but if this is all that we are to get for all time, it is completely inadequate and does not begin to measure up to the possibilities for constitutional reform north of the border.
There are other questions about the detail of the changes that need to be addressed. Will this end the difficult process, which we have experienced more and more in recent years, of small Scottish sections being added to principally English Bills? As a legal practitioner in a previous incarnation, I know that the situation was becoming impossible even before 1983 when I was elected. It has worsened since. Will the Secretary of State comment on that matter of continuing concern? Will the changes provide more time for effective scrutiny and deal with the important question asked by the right hon. Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro), who hoped, as I do, that the proposals of the Scottish Law Commission will get a better hearing under this process than previously? If that proves to be so, it will be a significant advantage.
It is not clear who will control the access of UK and English Ministers, Prime Ministers and Chancellors who will come to give us the benefit of their views. Will that be entirely under the control of the Government or will we be able to negotiate it through the usual channels? Will the Committee be able to vote to require or request--or, indeed, reject--the attendance of a UK Minister? The process and the arrangements that will have to be made for that are not clear.
I welcome the fact that we will be able to return to questions of principle on Third Reading of Bills. Does that mean that we will be able to discuss things that are not in the Bill, as amended, at that stage? At present, we would not be in order if we discussed something that was not in the Bill on Third Reading. If we will now be able to discuss matters of principle, that gives us the opportunity to consider things that are not in the Bill, as amended, on Third Reading in a way that we cannot at the moment. I would value some advice on that.
Mr. Newton:
It may help if I say a brief, off-the-cuff word about that. As always, it is up to the occupant of the Chair to decide what is in or out of order in a speech. That is the basic point. I would not envisage anything being in order in a Third Reading debate in the Scottish Grand Committee that would be out of order in such a debate in the House. I guess that a passing reference to regretting that something was not in the Bill might be in
Mr. Kirkwood:
I hope that the Leader of the House will give that further and better consideration. If the suggestion enshrined in the proposals is to mean anything and we are to have discussion in principle of the contents of the Bill on Third Reading, I do not understand how the situation that he has described could obtain.
Mr. Newton:
I do not wish to make a huge issue of this, but we are talking about a Third Reading debate and the opportunity to have it in the Scottish Grand Committee rather than on the Floor of the House. Apart from that, it is no different.
Mr. Kirkwood:
The Third Reading of the Children (Scotland) Bill, for example, took 20 minutes. If we are to take proper advantage of the new procedure we should be able to discuss things in principle on Third Reading. Obviously, this is a matter for the occupant of the Chair in any particular circumstance, but I believe that it is out of order to discuss things that are not in the Bill, as amended, on Third Reading. If we are to discuss things in principle, we should be able to do precisely that. There is confusion about that in my mind, if in no one else's. Perhaps the Leader of the House could give the matter further consideration.
Mr. Allan Stewart (Eastwood):
The hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire (Mr. Kirkwood) made some general points with which he would not expect me to agree, but he has asked some interesting questions about how the proposed procedures would work.
This is a short and largely technical debate. I take the view already expressed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro) and my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr (Mr. Gallie) that these are sensible, practical changes. They are changes within the framework of the Union.
I say to the hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mrs. Taylor) that to defend the Union--at the last general election, or, for that matter, at previous ones--is not to say that the Union is cast permanently in stone in respect of its institutions. That is an absurd position to take.
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