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Mr. Home Robertson: Is it my hon. Friend's understanding that the Northern Ireland Assembly is to be funded by an orange tax?
Mr. Robertson: I shall not rise to that bait.
On a serious point, the framework document makes it clear that the sources of funding for the Northern Ireland Assembly are open to negotiation. Nothing has been ruled out by Her Majesty's Government for Northern Ireland, although they have ruled out everything for Scotland.
A party of government that is down to 13 per cent. in Scotland--to the bottom of the barrel--should act with a little humility. There may have come a time, even for this Secretary of State for Scotland--who foisted the poll tax on Scotland, whence it went to the rest of the country--to listen to the Scottish people who so decisively reject him. Instead of coming up with wheezes and public relations gimmicks that he is willing to parade in the streets of Scotland without any dignity, he should take heed of the work being done in the consensus-based forum of the Scottish Constitutional Convention.
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Michael Forsyth):
The Scottish people will certainly not want to have anything to do with the tartan tax proposed by the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. Robertson)--just as the Leader of the Opposition wanted nothing to do with it. If the hon. Gentleman is correct that the proposals are such a bad idea, is it not significant that he and his colleagues will once again sit on their hands and decline to vote against them tonight? Labour Members decried the tax cuts in much the same way, but when it comes to the crunch they cannot vote against the proposals, because they knew that they are popular.
The hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire (Mr. Kirkwood) at least had the good grace to recognise that this is an opportunity for us to perform our work in Scotland more effectively and to improve legislation for Scotland. This week's meeting of the Scottish Grand Committee in Glasgow was a marvellous example of how it is possible for hon. Members from different political parties to put their differences aside and discuss serious issues, such as drugs, and take forward the debate. I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman could not recognise that.
The hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mrs. Taylor) talked about panic. If she wants panic, she should have seen her leader on his day trip to Scotland. He started the day by assuring us that there would be no tartan tax unless it were in the Labour manifesto--and he gave an assurance that it would not be. By the end of the day--after some fancy footwork on the part of the hon. Member for Hamilton--the Leader of the Opposition supported the hon. Gentleman in his call for a tartan tax. At least, I think that was the Leader of the Opposition's position. The Scottish people will have nothing to do with a tax-raising Parliament.
The hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire asked me if this is the end. No, it is not. When I made my statement to the House, I said that I was open to positive suggestions. At least the hon. Gentleman has the intellectual honesty to acknowledge that the Constitutional Convention's proposals would mean the end of the office of Secretary of State and a reduction in the number of Scottish Members of Parliament. The hon. Gentleman is still living in cloud cuckoo land, where he thinks he can have his cake and eat it.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro) welcomed the proposals, and I am grateful for his support. The hon. Members for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman) and for Glasgow, Springburn (Mr. Martin) emphasised the importance of proper facilities. I am relieved to learn that not everyone in the Labour party has sharp suits and mobile telephones--although I must admit that the hon. Member for Springburn has a sharp suit. But it is a serious point, as my right hon. Friend acknowledged.
The hon. Member for Springburn also referred to the presence of the Whip. Far be it from me to make a plea on behalf of the Whips, but the hon. Member for East Lothian (Mr. Home Robertson) intervened during the Scottish Grand Committee hearing in Edinburgh to complain about his inability to talk to the usual channels. I do not know whether the hon. Member for Springburn remembers that, but perhaps he should have a word with his hon. Friend, who does not seem to have the right line from the Whips Office.
The hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire welcomed the changes. He asked me whether there would be more opportunities to deal with Scottish legislation in the Grand Committee. I hope there will, and that measures that would otherwise have to wait their turn as private Members' business can be considered in the Grand Committee. That would demand some restraint, and co-operation through the usual channels, but there is a real chance that we could achieve that goal. The hon. Gentleman has recognised that opportunity, and I welcome his support.
The hon. Gentleman also asked about Ministers from Departments other than the Scottish Office appearing before the Scottish Grand Committee. It is obviously for the Government to decide who should answer particular debates. However, the nature of the subjects chosen for debate should select which Minister will respond.
For example, my hon. Friend the Minister with responsibility for railways and roads appeared before the Scottish Grand Committee during its consideration of the Fort William sleeper service. That is an obvious example of a Minister from the relevant Department appearing before the Committee. I am sure that Department of Transport officials found it very useful briefing the Minister for that debate.
I welcome the support of my hon. Friend the Member for Eastwood (Mr. Stewart). He asked a key question which the hon. Member for Hamilton has not yet answered: if we are able to take legislation through the Grand Committee and hold members of the Executive to account in Scotland, what could a Scottish Parliament with a majority of Labour Members do under a Labour Government that could not be done in the Scottish Grand Committee?
Mrs. Ann Taylor:
It could make decisions.
Mr. Forsyth:
I appreciate that any Labour Government would find making decisions very difficult. However, a Scottish Grand Committee with a Labour majority under a Labour Government would be able to do everything that a Scottish Parliament could do, except one thing: raise a tartan tax, and make the Scots pay more income tax than the English. A Scottish Parliament would not be able to hold the Prime Minister and Ministers to account in the way that the Scottish Grand Committee can.
My hon. Friend the Member for Eastwood is absolutely correct to make that point, and to draw attention to the fact that hon. Members will be able to ask more questions in the Committee. I take his point about times, and that matter will be settled through the usual channels. I appreciate his comments about private Members' business, but I ask him to take on board the answer that I gave to the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire. I think that we will have a real chance to take through uncontroversial measures, which would not otherwise not be available to us, as Government measures.
The hon. Member for Falkirk, East (Mr. Connarty) talked about my unpopular policies in Scotland. They were so unpopular that I twice defeated the hon. Gentleman at the ballot box in Stirling before he ran off to Falkirk.
The hon. Member for Angus, East (Mr. Welsh) brought the pantomime scene to our proceedings a little early, by giving us the analogy of the Titanic. If he was comparing our position to that, he must have been the iceberg. I can only assume that there is a lot more below the surface than was apparent from his contribution to the debate.
Mr. Welsh:
I remind the Minister that I also used the analogy of Banquo's ghost, who led to the denouement of the play by reminding the criminals of their crime.
Mr. Forsyth:
I am delighted that, after all his rude comments about the English, the hon. Gentleman still acknowledges the importance of Shakespeare as a good English poet and playwright.
The hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow asked whether the Scottish Grand Committee would be able to come to Greenock. Obviously, it is a matter for the House authorities to consider possible venues, but I understand that the Opposition have suggested Ayr. As there may be a particular problem with the date in Ayr, if the hon. Gentleman has a word with his hon. Friend, that might be a possibility. As to the choice of subjects, the Opposition have their allotted days.
The measure is a positive step forward. It gives Scottish Members the opportunity to demonstrate to their electors their commitment to good government in Scotland. It provides an opportunity for the Opposition to hold the Government to account for their policies--I shall not place too much emphasis on that. Although the Opposition have a ragbag of confused people proposing a tartan tax on the people of Scotland, they clearly have to sort out their own act before holding the Government to account. The proposals represent an opportunity, and I commend them to the House.
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