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Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney, North and Stoke Newington): Is it not misleading to talk of 7 per cent., or 4 per cent., of people eventually being given refugee status? Another 14 or 15 per cent. are given exceptional leave to remain, and those of us who have dealt with refugee cases know that it is almost as hard to obtain exceptional leave to remain as it is to be recognised as a refugee.
Mr. Lilley: I shall deal with the question of exceptional leave to remain in a moment. [Interruption.] I shall give my speech in my own way, and without further interruptions.
None the less, under the regulations, those who arrive in this country claiming to be refugees will remain entitled to benefit while the Home Office assesses their claim.
Mr. Nick Raynsford (Greenwich):
Will the Secretary of State give way?
Mr. Lilley:
I shall make a little progress, if I may, if only to please the hon. Member for Blackburn(Mr. Straw).
We must recognise, however, that 70 per cent. of claims in this country are made by people who entered the country claiming to be students, tourists, visitors or business people. They had to convince the immigration officers that that was so, and that they had the means to support themselves when in this country. They accepted that they could not be a burden on public funds. Subsequently, they change their story and claim asylum. Under the present system, they are then entitled to receive benefits. In future, those who change their story will not be entitled to benefits. We will hold them to their original assurances, unless there has been an upheaval in the country from which they have come since they left it.
Mr. James Couchman (Gillingham):
Does my right hon. Friend agree that, although people may use all sorts of devious ways to get out of countries where they fear persecution, there is no need for them to lie at the port of entry when they come here? If they throw themselves at the mercy of people at the port of entry and tell the truth, they are much more likely to be believed to be genuine asylum seekers.
Mr. Lilley:
My hon. Friend makes a good point. The reason that genuine claimants come to this country and flee a country in which they are being persecuted is that they know that we are a haven of freedom. They come here because they trust our authorities, not because they distrust us. If they did distrust them, they would go somewhere else.
Mr. Raynsford:
Will the Secretary of State give way?
Mr. Lilley:
If the hon. Gentleman will permit, I will make some further progress.
We shall change the rules affecting asylum seekers to put them on the same basis as British citizens who are not entitled to benefits while appealing against rejection of a
benefits claim. As I said in my intervention on the hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury, successive Governments, including Labour Governments, have treated benefit claimants in this country in that way, and he did not come up with any specific reasons for distinguishing between British claimants appealing against rejection of benefit, and asylum claimants appealing against rejection of their asylum claim and against not being allowed to receive benefits during that period.
Ms Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Highgate):
May I give the Secretary of State two specific areas where a marked difference exists between an asylum seeker being denied benefits and a British national being denied them? I do not want to get into the ethical difference between seeking asylum and claiming benefits, but surely the most salient differences are, first, that an asylum seeker probably does not speak English and, secondly, that he or she will have no family, friends or support to assist while waiting for the application to be processed.
Mr. Lilley:
That is not the case. The vast majority have contacts over here and, of course, by the time the question of appeal comes up, they have been found not to be genuine refugees. If they choose to pursue that claim, fair enough, but the present system encourages virtually everyone to appeal. If we had such a system internally, virtually everyone would appeal. As it is, only a small minority of British claimants whose application for a benefit is rejected, appeal. A large majority of their appeals are upheld by the tribunals because only those with a good case bother to appeal. The vast majority of asylum claimants appeal and 96 per cent. of those appeals are found to be unfounded. It cannot be right to continue virtually to pay people to make appeals, the large majority of which are bogus.
Mr. Raynsford:
The Secretary of State will recall that, in his speech, my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Smith) highlighted a case, in which I have been involved, of a refugee who suffered torture and horrendous experiences in Iraq. On arrival in the United Kingdom, speaking no English, confused and unaware of the procedures, he did not make an immediate claim for asylum, but he did so three days later when advised by the friends with whom he had come to stay to seek safety from persecution. If the right hon. Gentleman has any humanity, how can he claim that that person is a bogus refugee?
Mr. Lilley:
The hon. Gentleman obviously did not hear my earlier intervention. He has failed to answer the question why, if all the circumstances he cited are correct, the person concerned--we all sympathise with that person--answered dishonestly the questions put to him by the immigration official.
Mr. Raynsford:
Because he does not speak English.
Mr. Lilley:
But the Home Office makes available translation and interpretation services in more than 100 languages, including Arabic. There is no question but that the person concerned could have made himself understood. He would have had to do so to convince the immigration officer that he was here as a student, if he said that he was a student; as a visitor, if he said that he
Mr. Raynsford:
Of course I asked those questions when the man came to my surgery with an interpreter. He explained, through an interpreter because he spoke no English, how he arrived in a foreign country in a state of terror, fleeing from persecution, and said that he had come to stay with his relatives and friends. He made an application for asylum later. It is a genuine case, and he should not be penalised by the regulations.
Mr. Lilley:
It has emerged that the man had friends and relatives to support him, and that he convinced the immigration officer that that was so. That is satisfactory for him--[Interruption.] I am trying to deal with the general point about claims made in-country versus those made at the port.
It is nonsense to suggest that people fail to claim at the port because they do not know the rules. No one needs to know the rules; nor do people need to know English. There are interpretation facilities at the port. All they have to do is tell the truth when asked by the immigration officials at the port to give their reasons for coming to this country. If they say that they are fleeing persecution and they want asylum, they will subsequently be allowed to claim benefit while pursuing that claim.
If, however, they say that they are here to study, to visit relatives, as tourists or on business, they will have to convince the immigration authorities of that. They will be asked to show that they will be able to support themselves, and they will have to convince the immigration officials of that. They will probably be asked where they will stay, and they will have to provide information about that. They will probably be asked to show that they have a return ticket or the means to buy one.
People do not accidentally give the wrong answers to those questions. Of course, most of them answer honestly, and at the time they entered the country they did intend to come for those reasons, perhaps with the thought also of seeking asylum. On the other hand, that might not have been in their minds, but subsequently it was put into their minds. Quite a substantial number do not make the asylum claim until the end of their period of entitlement to stay or until they have overstayed.
Mr. Chris Smith:
If that is the case, can the right hon. Gentleman tell us why, year after year after year, a higher proportion of applicants for asylum who apply after they came into the country are awarded refugee status than applicants who applied at the port of entry?
Mr. Lilley:
That is not invariably the case. The numbers are small--
Mr. Jack Straw (Blackburn):
In every year?
Mr. Lilley:
No, not in every year.
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