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Mr. Soames: I know that the hon. Gentleman, like a rather large pheasant, will not be diverted from his flight path. We all share some concerns about the flagging of British ships and regret that there are not as many of them as before. However, British forces have just completed the largest deployment of troops to Europe since the last war. That was performed in a spectacularly successful and orderly fashion without any difficulties whatsoever. It was highly effective and extremely efficient. Does thehon. Gentleman agree that that is the most important criterion for the deployment of our troops abroad?
Mr. Murphy: I am glad that the Minister referred to pheasants. One of the reasons why I did not see the Secretary of State for Defence on the "Spitting Image" programme last Sunday is that I was eating pheasant. They tell me that it is good for the figure.
As to the Minister's reference to sealift, we accept that efficiency and effectiveness are important. However, we must not forget that we have a duty to try to ensure that our Merchant Navy is up to scratch and can be used in those circumstances. We must remember that foreign ships and crews cannot be as reliable as our British Merchant Navy in many respects. It is not good to have to rely on other countries because the Merchant Navy has declined so drastically.
The Minister said that the Ministry of Defence borrowed two United States military transport vehicles for operations in Bosnia. Not one British ship was used to ferry equipment; we even used a ship that was registered in Luxembourg --a country which, as hon. Members will know, has no coast.
Last year, the MOD chartered 70 vessels for Bosnia. Only 15 were British and the rest came from Panama, Malta, Ukraine, Latvia and heaven knows where else. It is important to give credence to the idea that there is a future for the Merchant Navy. Part of that future lies in its relationship with the Royal Navy and its ability to help the Navy out.
Ministers will know, because their admirals will tell them, that the future of the Royal Navy is in what the technicians call littoral warfare, in which the three services operate together in task groups of helicopters, carriers and other assault ships near enemy coasts. That expeditionary role requires proper amphibious forces and equipment. The Minister is right to say that no one can question the excellent ability of, for example, the Royal Marines.
The Minister did not answer the questions that were put to him by his hon. Friends. What is happening to our aging and rusting landing ships is important. The House was told this week by the Minister that replacements for HMS Fearless and Intrepid would have to wait, not a few weeks this time, but until around the turn of the century.
We were told in another answer this week that HMS Intrepid was last at sea in 1990. That is almost six years ago. The Daily Telegraph recently reported that a major exercise for NATO in May could well be cancelled due to problems getting HMS Fearless to sea because the entire bulkhead had rusted away. A few weeks ago, Defence News quoted a defence source as saying of Intrepid:
Mr. Arbuthnot:
If the hon. Gentleman had been listening to my speech, he would have heard me say that all of that is not true.
Mr. Murphy:
I understand that, but I must tell the Minister that there is considerable disagreement and unease--not only on my part, but among Conservative Members who represent coastal constituencies that are involved in these matters--about the replacement of those ships and their seaworthiness. These are important matters because littoral warfare will be the Royal Navy's new role in the coming century.
The United States is exploring what it calls co-operative engagement. It was stated clearly in the debate on the Army that the United Kingdom leads Europe in relation to the allied rapid reaction force. Why cannot we, with our naval history and experience, lead Europe in naval co-operation as well? Why cannot we be the link between the United States and Europe in naval matters? One of the reasons is that the Secretary of State--he has gone now--is no friend to Europe. Surely even he realises that co-operation in Europe and in NATO is the way ahead, but it has been seriously jeopardised by cuts and the lack of a proper long-term plan.
Mr. Peter Griffiths (Portsmouth, North):
I should like to echo the comments that my hon. Friend the Minister of State for Defence Procurement made in opening the debate,
The Minister mentioned the work of HMS Southampton in the Caribbean. The crew of that ship were involved in extremely important humanitarian operations, but they were not the only ones who were inconvenienced. It had been expected that there would be rest and recreation in Florida during the ship's deployment and the wives, at their own cost, had arranged to visit their loved ones. That all had to be cancelled, however, due to the situation which arose in the Caribbean. It is important to remember the role of the families when we praise the armed forces.
Whenever one speaks about the Royal Navy or the armed forces generally, it is a truism to say that we live in uncertain times. One point on which I agreed with the hon. Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy) was his comment that he felt that we ought to seek stability and certainty, in so far as that is possible in view of the problems with which the armed forces are designed to deal. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister of State for Defence Procurement, and my hon. Friend the Minister of State for the Armed Forces in his reply, will manage to settle some of the uncertainties that have beset hon. Members on both sides of the House in relation to some of the issues that the Ministry of Defence faces.
My hon. Friends made it clear in earlier interventions just how strongly they feel about the replacements for the aging assault ships. I accept the assurances of myhon. Friend the Minister of State for Defence Procurement that we shall be able to meet our obligations in the coming exercises. However, no hon. Member can have any doubt that we must develop our amphibious capacity in such a way that we can supplement HMS Ocean with dedicated assault ships. That must be done as soon as possible.
I do not expect the Minister to change his statement about timing, but I ask him--as I asked his predecessor a year ago--to give us an assurance that we are talking about two replacement assault ships for the two existing ships, rather than one ship in addition to the helicopter carrier HMS Ocean. That assurance would be a great comfort to us and a part of the stability that we seek.
I should also like an assurance in relation to the replacement order for the new type 23 frigates. We all know that the companies tendering for the order have been asked to tender on the basis of building one, two or three ships. It does not require any great knowledge of shipbuilding to recognise that if the Navy requires three type 23 frigates it will be cheaper to order three at one time rather than one or two now and one or two more at a later stage after a separate negotiation.
The tender prices that have been placed before the MOD run only to March this year. It is therefore important that we can be assured that the decision will be
taken within, literally, the next few weeks--in February--and that the decision will be to order three frigates. That would give the MOD flexibility to place the orders in a way that deals with the problem of maintaining jobs in the warship-building industry, which the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman raised. That would also help in relation to the important point that my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers) raised about the need to maintain competition in price setting for vessels in this country.
It may be that the sheer size of HMS Ocean, which was a one-off ship, limited the opportunity for competition, but in regard to frigates I remind my hon. Friend that there is capacity on the south coast of England to build ships in steel that would be competitive in price, quality and delivery date. That potential would retain for the Ministry the opportunity to obtain competitive prices for vessels as they are required.
The case for Vosper Thornycroft is unanswerable. That company has seized opportunities in overseas markets year in and year out and is an example to other yards. It should be recognised as a highly successful shipbuilding operation that requires serious consideration when orders are placed for the three frigates.
"If it is ever possible to get her moving, she could only now be used for transport; certainly not amphibious operations . . . We continue to pour new wine into old bottles and it is a terrible waste of money".
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