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10.48 am
Mr. Tom Cox (Tooting): It is a great pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Selby (Mr. Alison). With regard to his argument about prosecution, he and the House will know that on so many issues concerning the overall welfare of youngsters, other countries which, sadly, suffer from the kind of problems that we are discussing look to countries such as ours to set standards, strengthen legislation and give them the confidence to take action in the knowledge that they will be supported. That is an important point.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Hendon, South(Mr. Marshall) on introducing this important Bill, which I am sure will have wide support. The two early-day motions on the subject show the wide range ofhon. Members of different parties who support it.
As a member of the British parliamentary delegation to the Council of Europe, I have for the past year been rapporteur in the production of a report on a "European Strategy for Children". Many organisations involved with the welfare of children have been supportive of the work of our committee, which has met in several European countries. On 19 December 1995 Carol Bellamy, executive director of UNICEF, wrote to me from its New York headquarters saying,
The report was discussed at the Council of Europe assembly meeting in Strasbourg on 24 January and overwhelmingly approved by member states. As myhon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East(Mr. Anderson) said, the Council of Europe now has 38 member states and includes countries which are not in the European Union such as Iceland and Turkey.
Our "European Strategy for Children" highlights the problem of sexual offences against children. We have heard a great deal about Thailand in this context. The right hon. Member for Selby also mentioned other countries
which, sadly, suffer from this continuing problem. The evidence that he gave from press releases and travel brochures clearly shows what is happening. As rapporteur in charge of a report on the abuse and neglect of children which the Council of Europe has agreed should be presented, I have spoken with our legal advisers in Strasbourg and we shall meet in Paris on 5 and 6 March for the first preliminary presentation of the report. The Council of Europe supports the Bill brought forward by the hon. Member for Hendon, South and we look to the Government also to support the measure. As I said in my intervention to my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East, nine Council of Europe members already have legislation of the kind that the hon. Member for Hendon, South is seeking to introduce.
We all know of the United Nations convention on the rights of the child. Article 34 deals with "Sexual exploitation" and the unofficial summary of its main provisions states:
Powerful organisations and conventions such as the Council of Europe and the United Nations convention on the rights of the child support the Bill.
With other hon. Members, I serve on the executive of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. Its conference this year will be in Malaysia in August. Our secretary, Andrew Pearson, has invited us to submit items for the agenda. I have suggested that we discuss child prostitution and sex tourism for the reason suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East when he mentioned the laws in Australia. Sadly, several Commonwealth countries have this terrible problem. It therefore is right that the subject should be discussed at Commonwealth level and the views of Commonwealth countries about how to work together explained and discussed.
My hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East mentioned the conference in Stockholm on 27 to31 August this year. I congratulate the Swedish Government on making all the arrangements. They are working closely with UNICEF and an organisation called End Child Prostitution in Asian Tourism. That conference will have a worldwide attendance and I expect to be the Council of Europe delegate to it. As my hon. Friend said, we are looking for a senior Government Minister to attend that conference. Ministers will not be able to say that they were not aware it. I have given the dates. I and the Council of Europe expect Britain to be represented by a Minister who will be able to do more than say that he is listening with interest and will come forward with clear ideas about what to do--backed, I hope, by the measure now before the House.
The agenda for the conference includes consideration of developing policies worldwide to combat the growing problem of child sexual exploitation, and we know that it will be attended by representatives of Governments, law enforcement agencies and health professionals as well as representatives from the tourist industry and the media. The right hon. Member for Selby made some valuable comments about the power of travel brochures and how enticing and exciting they can be. We should not lose sight of the fact that television can be equally exciting, as people in the comfort of their own homes can be enticed to visit other parts of the world. I hope that we shall be represented by a senior Minister at that conference.
I shall not go into great detail about the Bill because I believe in the intentions of the hon. Member for Hendon, South. My hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East is a barrister and as a result of his professional background he has asked certain questions. He is perfectly entitled to do so and no doubt Conservative Members from the same professional background will ask such questions. Those of us who have been in the House for a while, however, know that the right place for such questions and discussions is in Standing Committee. If the Bill encounters any difficulties, I hope that the Government will support the hon. Member for Hendon, South.
Those of us who have been here for a while have sat on many Committees and we have seen Conservative Members, speaking for the Government, argue that they basically support certain legislation, but that it is too complex and therefore they cannot go along with it. I shall not repeat what has already been said about yesterday's statement, but those of us who hope to be members of the Standing Committee on the Bill hope that it and thehon. Member for Hendon, South will receive total support from the Government. I accept that certain amendments may be necessary, but they should be tabled for discussion in Committee.
The Bill is designed to overcome the problems faced by youngsters in foreign countries who are abused by British nationals, but we should not close our eyes to what is happening in our own country. Yesterday's edition of the Yorkshire Post contained an article headed, "Little Girl Lost". The paper reported:
Vile offences against children are taking place in foreign countries, but such offences are also committed here. The article states:
That article was not describing Thailand, Kenya or Sri Lanka, but the United Kingdom in February 1996, where a young girl of 12 years is selling her body on the streets. The Bill addresses a specific issue, but I ask the Minister, please, not to forget the tragic problems which exist in many parts of our own country.
Kerb crawling is a problem in my constituency, although I do not suggest for one moment that the prostitutes in my area are as young as 12 years of age.I have great confidence in the local police and I know that they would take immediate action if they found such a girl. Even if it is not happening in my constituency, however, it is happening elsewhere. We should not forget that fact, and we need to do something about it.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Hendon, South and I support his intentions. As I have said, the Council of Europe also offers him its total support. My hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East and I, with otherhon. Members on the executive committee of the
Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, hope that the important issue addressed in the Bill will be on the agenda at the CPA conference in August in Malaysia.
Mr. David Ashby (North-West Leicestershire):
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South (Mr. Marshall) on his Bill and I agree with its purpose. Attempts to deal with a conspiracy to commit offences abroad and incitement to commit such offences are, however, fraught with legal difficulties. I was involved in the leading case on conspiracy to commit offences abroad--Attorney-General's reference No. 2 of 1988, or 1987. From my experience, such cases are a legal minefield. I am therefore happy to give the Bill one cheer rather than two.
There is no point in hon. Members making high-flown speeches about morals abroad and how we should influence behaviour abroad. We must be pragmatic. I do not believe that we achieve anything by trying to persuade other countries to do certain things or to behave in certain ways. It is far better to consider what we can achieve here and to legislate to achieve that. That may be limited, but I offer three cheers for one cheer rather than giving the two or three cheers called for by my right hon. Friend the Member for Selby (Mr. Alison).
We must remember, as judges have said time and again, that the courts are not courts of morals but courts of law. One must look to the law, which reveals that the Bill is fraught with many problems, not least about sentencing.
When the House dealt with the age of consent--on that occasion in homosexual cases--I always maintained that the age of consent should be the same for both sexes, because that is so in most countries abroad. I have always felt that one of the inherent difficulties in legislating is the difference in the age of consent in every country. One can go round Europe, not least within the boundaries of the Council of Europe, and find differing ages of consent. It is much lower in some countries than in the United Kingdom. After all, it is just few hundred years since our kings married child brides of 13 and 14.
The recent case in Turkey where a young British 13-year-old has married also reveals the problems involved in attempting to legislate. The Turkish authorities have said that that marriage is illegal, but I believe that it might be legal in the religious sense rather than in the civil sense. I believe that the age of consent for marriage in Turkey is 15. It is 16 in the United Kingdom, as noted in the Bill.
"Thank for sharing with me a copy of the report on a 'European Strategy for Children'. I commend you and your colleagues at the Council for undertaking this farsighted initiative for the future of children."
"The State shall protect children from sexual exploitation and abuse, including prostitution and involvement in pornography."
"Children as young as 11 are turning to prostitution to pay for their drug habit, says West Yorkshire's Chief Constable Keith Hellawell."
"On a freezing street corner in Leeds last night, Wendy was doing business. At the age of 12 she was selling sex to feed a drugs habit which has already been part of her life for more than two years . . . Her boyfriend--she insists he's that rather than her pimp--drives her to the areas in Leeds and Bradford where she does business.He also supplies most of her drugs.
'I don't do it every night,' she says, 'may be just a couple of nights a week depending on how much money I need.'"
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