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Mr. Michael: From my experience as a journalist and as a magistrate, I counsel a little care in relation to depending too much on the case summary, however accurate, whether the case is tried in the United Kingdom or abroad. There is often considerable misrepresentation, of which those who have sat through a case will be aware. Is not the Minister resting his case entirely on one particular incident, in which his criticisms of the prosecution may be entirely justifiable, to say that there should be no possibility of a prosecution even if there was good evidence in this country?
Mr. Sackville: I am to trying demonstrate the difficulties that could easily occur. As to the hon. Gentleman's first point, my comments were not based on press reports. Officials in my Department had access to the transcript of the case and have gone into some detail about it. I hope that the hon. Gentleman does not think that anything that I have said is pure hearsay.
There are clearly problems with rules of evidence. There is a problem in some countries that have granted extra-territoriality because the concept of best available evidence is allowed. In some cases, judges can decide what weight to give evidence. In our system, that evidence would be absolutely inadmissible. So there are some absolute differences between the way in which our legal system and those of some other countries work. However,
a video of a person committing such an act would appear to constitute admissible evidence. In the coming review on extending jurisdiction, that is something that we shall carefully examine, as the hon. Gentleman asked us to do.
I do not want the House to think that we are in any way not taking a positive stance. We shall carefully examine the pros and cons of extending jurisdiction, and we are taking steps internationally, which I hope will be helpful. We work hard in the various international bodies, particularly in the United Nations General Assembly and the Commission on Human Rights, to combat child prostitution. We supported the adoption by the commission in 1992 of a programme of action for the prevention of the sale of children, child prostitution and child pornography and have urged all countries to implement the measures contained in it. We frequently raise the question of child prostitution in contacts with the authorities in countries where it is a major concern, including Thailand.
Our own Overseas Development Administration provides assistance to a number of non-governmental projects which involve the rehabilitation of street children and deal with the associated problems of prostitution, drug abuse and violence. The link between drugs and prostitution, including child prostitution, is clear, and has been mentioned today.
Although the United Kingdom police have no powers to pursue child abusers abroad, I should point out that the police service provides assistance to local law enforcement officers directly and through participation in training sessions at the Interpol standing working party on offences against minors. The National Criminal Intelligence Service--NCIS--is able, through Interpol, to provide every assistance to police in countries receiving sex tourists to help to identify Britons among them.
The hon. Members for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson) and for Tooting (Mr. Cox) referred to the world conference in Sweden. We are, of course, well aware of the proposals and have been invited to participate in it, as have our EU partners and others. However, we have first to consider the extent to which such a conference will be successful, and we need to be very clear what its aims are. We have asked for more information, as have other countries. Once we have received it, we shall decide about representation, but neither hon. Gentlemen should be in any doubt that we are aware of that important conference.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South said, despite all the various arguments about the best way to proceed--whether to try to encourage extradition or to go for extra-territoriality--in the end, neither can solve the problem. The problem can be solved only in the countries involved and only if their Governments decide that they do not wish this activity to take place in their jurisdiction. We shall continue to urge all those countries to accept their responsibilities, foremost among which must be the protection of their children from abuse. The issue will continue to be a running sore until they do so.
As has been suggested, unless the situation improves, people who go on holiday to such countries will be under suspicion of being involved in one of these activities in question. It can only be to the disadvantage of those countries, their tourist trade and, indeed, their international reputation if they do not take action.
Mr. Alun Michael (Cardiff, South and Penarth):
The Minister's response has been extremely disappointing. It appears that we are going to continue to trail behind other countries, including the United States, many of our European partners, Australia and New Zealand. Do we have to wait for them to iron out all the difficulties instead of joining in a multinational initiative to stamp out this trade in degradation and misery?
Members of the public and hon. Members want to hear Ministers coming up with solutions to problems rather than seeking to justify apathy. The Minister confessed that there has not been a single extradition, which makes the offer to extradite pretty lightweight as a means of tackling the problem. Indeed, it is almost meaningless since the countries concerned fear the disastrous effect on the fragile economy of their legitimate tourist industry from any intervention by powerful western countries in respect of those people who participate in sex tourism.
Mr. John Marshall:
Does the hon. Gentleman accept that there has not been a single extradition because there has not been a single request for one? No one in any of the countries involved has produced any evidence on which to prosecute British citizens, so whether or not we had extra-territoriality would have been irrelevant because no case would have been made.
Mr. Michael:
The hon. Gentleman was clearly so keen to frame his intervention that he did not listen to my final sentence. I said that the economic impact on such countries was likely to be disastrous. They fear the impact of any prosecution or any request for the extradition of people from powerful western countries. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman recognises that problem.
The existence of pornography and titillation via the Internet is not a reason to despair but a threat which should galvanise us into stronger action to tackle the problem. The Minister is also wrong to suggest that the question of prosecuting acts abroad is a relatively new problem. He made it sound as though the issue had come up only yesterday.
My hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East(Mr. Anderson) rightly referred to the prosecution of war crimes. If the quality of evidence available abroad is the real obstacle to action, as the Minister seemed to suggest, why did the Government not send people abroad last summer or two years ago to examine that element of the case? Or is the argument merely designed to act as a further obstacle in later discussions? The issue did not arise when we debated the activities abroad of people involved in drug trafficking, and so on, whichhon. Members have wanted to tackle and, indeed, have legislated on in the past couple of years.
In referring to the War Crimes Act 1991, myhon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East was right to point out that the House decided that something must be done through domestic legislation to recognise the need to allow the prosecution of some of the most horrendous crimes of our century, especially those involving bestial
activity during the holocaust. It was intended to show our moral revulsion and express our shame at the actions of fellow human beings. It was also, however, specifically to allow prosecution in this country of acts that were committed abroad.
I agree that there is a difficulty in obtaining convictions. There would, however, also be a difficulty in obtaining prosecutions, although that is in some cases a general problem in the operation of the Crown Prosecution Service. That wider issue also needs to be tackled. We cannot start to tackle the problems at all, however, until we accept that British citizens abroad not only should not exploit and abuse children, but should not be able to use their financial power and influence as British citizens to exploit and abuse children. The right hon. Member for Selby (Mr. Alison) was also right to suggest that activities undertaken by British citizens abroad impact on the danger to children in our own society.
The Minister said that he does not want us to think that the Government are doing nothing, but the answer given yesterday to his hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway) was not especially reassuring. Thehon. Member for Ealing, North asked the Secretary of State whether he would extend the jurisdiction of the courts to enable them to deal with offences committed by United Kingdom nationals outside the territory of the United Kingdom. The question was understood by everybody to refer to the Bill before us today. It is merely a matter of convenience, of course, that the answer was given yesterday.
The Home Secretary stressed the general principle that the jurisdiction of the courts throughout the United Kingdom is territorially based, and said that he believed:
The answer went on to suggest the little germ that has been spun by the Home Office press machine into being some sort of action or undertaking. The words, however, are very clear:
The Home Secretary said that he had
That is not exactly a tough or vigorous promise to take action--and neither is the promise of a review, which is expected to take five months to complete. That sounds very much like another delay in responding tohon. Members' very specific concerns.
I began by responding to the Minister's speech because I was surprised and disappointed at his response. I want to place it on record, however, that I congratulate thehon. Member for Hendon, South (Mr. Marshall) on his success in obtaining the opportunity to introduce a Bill and on his sense of priorities in trying to tackle the abuse of children abroad by UK citizens. Anybody who heard the powerful speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mrs. Golding) will have been galvanised into wanting immediate action. The Bill is a small step in the right direction, towards allowing the prosecution of those who organise and profit from such a distasteful trade.
I thought that the Government would help and that we would have a shelf Bill, but if this is a shelf Bill drafted by the Home Office, it is one of the most inelegant to come from a Government Department in a long time. It seems almost to have been phrased so as to make it difficult, if not impossible, to amend it so that the issues aired in this debate could come within its scope. That is extremely disappointing.
Last week, we debated a private Member's Bill dealing with offensive weapons. Today, we are discussing sex tourism. Those are issues that the Home Secretary should have used his initiative to tackle rather than using the praiseworthy initiatives of hon. Members through private Members' Bills.
"There are long-standing arguments of principle and of practicality which support this approach."
"It is right, however, that we should from time to time examine whether those arguments remain valid in the light of changing circumstances."
"established an inter-departmental review to look at the implications of change."
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