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Mr. McCartney: He is making a comeback.
Mr. Dalyell: Many people make comebacks, but it is important to keep them fully in use as well.
Professor Knops, who teaches mathematics in Heriot-Watt university at Edinburgh, runs a project concerned with special tutorial facilities for those who find difficulties in this increasingly esoteric and complex subject. The same is done for chemical engineering students. Older people, in short, can build up the confidence of students. Although it might be argued that that is not directly related to advertising, I am concerned to change the atmosphere.
Last night I was invited to a meeting that included seven fellows of Peterhouse in Cambridge. Knowing that my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North intended to present his Bill today, I discussed it, and discovered that there was overwhelming support for it. Indeed, there is strong support for the Bill at every level in teaching.
Mr. Hugh Dykes (Harrow, East):
I certainly hope that the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) did not think I was being discourteous. If he did, I apologise--it was just the usual Friday morning problem of everyone wanting to speak.
I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for calling me early in the debate, because I must ask for the indulgence of the House. I have to go to another appointment later, so I will not be here for the end of the debate. In return for that indulgence, it is my duty to be brief. My other appointment will find me opening some new operating theatres at the Royal National orthopaedic hospital in Stanmore. Hospital units are being opened by this Government and the agencies responsible. That is good news, and it is a perfectly respectable reason for asking the House to forgive me for not being here later.
It is a great pleasure to support this Bill and the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick). I agree with the three speeches we have heard so far. My right hon. Friend the Member for the two cities referred to the daunting and discouraging definition by the Scottish judge. That put me in mind of the remarkable utterance by Elliott, who was first headmaster and then provost of Eton. In about 1938, he poured cold water on the entire institution and on all young people, by saying that he distrusted enthusiasm of any kind. Such an all-embracing assertion would certainly be very off-putting nowadays.
One of the features of modern society is the much greater enthusiasm for people doing things irrespective of their age--that includes very elderly people. That is why I am delighted to sponsor this Bill, and I thank the hon. Member for Walsall, North for inviting me to do so. The Bill has three or four Conservative supporters, which shows that it has all-party support.
We live in an age when old people have just as powerful rights as younger people. That represents a significant change of attitudes. Since we are indulging this morning in definitional assertions, I am reminded of the classic definition of true optimism. It concerns the 97-year-old man who, on getting married for the fifth time, deliberately chose to buy a house near a school.I am proud to be one of the enthusiastic supporters of a local university of the third age. It is a large organisation
in Harrow, I am pleased to say. I shall shortly be addressing the students on the virtues of European monetary union. I hope that they survive my outburst.It is remarkable to see people of extreme age, which is how they would have been described in the old days--it is no longer a valid description--learning things that they did not have the opportunity to study earlier in life. These people are well into their 70s, 80s and sometimes 90s.
Not in my local U3A but at one in west London, the students of which I addressed some time ago, I came across a 94-year-old lady learning Spanish. When I said, "What a marvellous language. I am glad that you are learning it. I speak it as well," she said, "I am learning Spanish flamenco as well as part of the course." That is the age in which we live. That is important in the context of employment and that is why I wholeheartedly support the Bill. I applaud the way in which it has been drafted, which I consider to be realistic and modest. So much so that it must tempt all fair-minded observers to say that it should be considered in Committee.
I agree with the hon. Member for West Lothian--
Mr. Dykes:
I was thinking of the West Lothian question.
The hon. Member for Linlithgow was right to say that it would be sad if my hon. Friend the Minister and the Government Whips were to decide not to allow the Bill to be committed to a Standing Committee and, as a result, block it, if the House did not succeed in bypassing their will. It would be a good idea for the Bill to be considered in detail in Committee. By that process we could iron out some of the difficulties, including those of terminology.
Having tested the Bill against quite a few experts on drafting, however, I am not sure that it contains that many textual weaknesses. The clauses have been drafted carefully. The promoter took a great deal of care in taking advice on drafting. There are some reflections of other discrimination legislation, and that should be reassuring.
Mr. Peter Bottomley (Eltham):
I hope that the promoter, the hon. Member for Walsall, North(Mr. Winnick), will consider whether the title might be changed to Employment Deregulation. If the Bill is enacted, those who might want to apply for a job will not feel disqualified. That would be fully in line with the Government's deregulation policy.
Mr. Dykes:
I am glad that I gave way to my hon. Friend. He has made an interesting observation. The sponsors might indicate whether they would agree to such a change.
Once again, I wish to express my wholehearted and enthusiastic support. I agree with what has been said by the previous three speakers. That being so, I do not wish to go into detail. I shall conclude by referring to Age Concern. We must thank it for the initiative that it has taken in supporting the Bill and for the letters that it has sent to Members through its able parliamentary officer. I hope that it will not be tedious for the House if I quote a paragraph of the letter that Age Concern sent me in mid-January. Before doing so, I pay tribute to the
extremely active, lively and dynamic Age Concern group in Harrow, which does a fabulous amount of work for local people.
The second paragraph reads:
That is a powerful sentiment and I am pleased to support it. As my right hon. Friend the Member for City of London and Westminster, South (Mr. Brooke) said, there is nothing more discouraging than realising that one is being blocked for a reason that is arbitrary, artificial, discriminatory and unfair. Nothing is more irritating,by the way--this happens in companies large and small--for the aged chief executive or chairman to be dismissing people at early forced retirement age for all sorts of so-called reasons, such as rationalisation and modernisation internally, when he has no intention of stepping down, even though he might be well over 75.
Against that background, I renew my plea to the Minister. I know the Government's intentions. At least I think that I guess them correctly. I believe that they intend to block the Bill. That would be a mistake. I think that parliamentarians of all parties wish Governments of all hues to be much more open minded towards sensible private Members' Bills in future. I know that more parliamentary time is being made available to consider them. I acknowledge that that is a step forward. There are occasions when the Government can and should say, "Yes, we shall let the Bill go to a Committee, where it can be examined." I am sure that the promoter would say, "Let the Government's administrators, officials and technicians take over the Bill and draft it properly." That happened a few years ago when the Government moved in, having originally opposed my Bill on heavy lorries, and said, "We shall draft it correctly and let it go through."
Mr. Ian Bruce (South Dorset):
I shall begin by making some declarations of interest that I think are important.I have been--technically I still am--the owner of an employment agency. My work within employment agencies has continued for about 20 years. On many occasions, I have acted as an advertising agency for recruitment. I have recently been asked by the Federation of Recruitment and Employment Services to be its parliamentary adviser. In the past few weeks, as I have been trying to get up to date with current legislation,I have been able to get my thoughts together so as to be ready for this speech, even though I did not realise that I would make it until about 24 hours ago.
"Age Concern supports the bill because we believe it would provide a positive sign to older people that age discrimination is unacceptable and encourages employers, both large and small,to rethink their employment policies so that every person has the right to be considered for work in relation to their needs, capabilities and wishes, irrespective of age."
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