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Mr. Ian McCartney: I am becoming confused. Is the hon. Gentleman declaring an unpaid or paid interest?
Mr. Bruce: A paid interest. I am happy to make that clear.
I shall talk briefly about my qualifications to participate in the debate.
Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West):
How old is the hon. Gentleman?
Mr. Bruce:
I am 48 years of age. I was going to mention that a little later in terms of the age of those whom I employ. I am, however, 48.
Mr. Banks:
The hon. Gentleman must have had a hard life.
Mr. Bruce:
Indeed. The facelift did not really work.
I began my working life as an apprentice. I worked in engineering and then work study. I was a factory manager for a period before starting my own employment agency. That agency ran in Yorkshire for 12 years. I do not claim to be the first headhunter or to have established the first employment agency, but I believe that in Yorkshire my agency was the first to have an equal opportunities approach to those whom I employed. It had a proactive approach in getting those who had disadvantages in securing employment into employment in Yorkshire.
I am completely opposed to the Bill. The Whips do not often see me in the Chamber on a Friday because I consider that it is the day when I should be in my constituency. However, I was so incensed by the Bill--it will reverse what has already been done--that I decided that it would be right to come in and make a speech. People should understand that the Bill, if enacted, would take us in the direction that we want to avoid. The knowledge that I gained during those years has been extremely important in forming my reasons why I believe that age discrimination is wrong.
I wish to put on record why it is totally wrong for companies to discriminate against older people. I do not say this from a moral standpoint, as we politicians often get ourselves in a complete muddle if we say simply that it is morally wrong to decide not to take on people who are older. It is so much more persuasive to tell companies that it is not in their interests to discriminate against people who are over a particular age. Let me demonstrate that I am not someone who says one thing and does another. When I first came to the House, I employed my first secretary, who, I think, was 52. I apologise to her for mentioning her age, because ladies do not like people to mention their age--
Mr. Richard Spring (Bury St. Edmunds):
Agist.
Mr. Bruce:
I suspect that I am being sexist and agist, but it has been my experience that ladies do not like
I am absolutely convinced that the older worker is someone who will provide the services that an employer wants. That is self-evident when one looks round the House. The hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) mentioned the chronological age against the age that people accept. It is so wrong for people to focus on a chronological age when thinking about taking someone on.
Why am I so against the Bill? We heard a good speech from my right hon. Friend the Member for City of London and Westminster, South (Mr. Brooke), who spoke about the way in which employment agents are often proactive in listening to what the client says and then providing what the client needs. If anybody does an analysis of what is advertised, what is on spec for somebody, versus what is taken on, they will see that they are often diametrically opposed. The attitude that an employment agent must have is to listen to what the client says and then determine what is for real and who will fit the bill. The fundamental point is whether one mentions age. If we legislate and say to employers, "You will not be allowed to advertise a particular age range," we are almost saying to them, "You had better not mention to anybody, even if it is in your mind or on a piece of paper back at the company, that you want to discriminate."
The great advantage of knowing when a company is discriminating, particularly if one is an employment agent or a headhunter, is that one can say to oneself, "I know that this person is saying something that is illogical, not sensible and not good policy for the company, because I am not convinced that the job needs a particular age limitation on it." We all know that there are 70-year-olds who can run the marathon and that there are 20-year-olds who cannot. If one knows that a company is discriminating, one can start to ask oneself how to get the message across to the client to demonstrate that the person can do the job, that he or she has the experience that is asked for and is not too worried about age. That is extremely important. People say that life begins at 40,but most people do not want to have to wait that long for their lives to begin. The Bill is wrong for many reasons. We should look at what is really happening.
I received the briefing from the Library, as did other colleagues, and it is quite good. It demonstrated that, in recent years, the number of people including age limitations in their advertisements is going down. I am afraid that I am one of those who never really believes the people who do the research, so I did some myself. Without any real selection or deciding which newspapers to look at, I got hold of yesterday's edition of The Daily Telegraph. In terms of national newspapers, it is renowned for carrying the most job advertisements. In my employment agency, I specialised in sales recruitment. That is one of the areas in which The Daily Telegraph
specialises. Indeed, my experience is that it is one of the areas where advertisements from companies that specify the ages of sales reps as between 25 and 35 are most prevalent. I was surprised at how many of the 554 advertisers in yesterday's edition mentioned an age range--18. About half the advertisers said "preferred age range" and the other half simply implied that there was an upper age limit.
Mr. Winnick:
I know that the hon. Gentleman does not like to rely on briefs, but we can usually rely on the Library to provide information that is pretty impartial. Page 7 of the Library's brief says that a survey carried out among the Institute of Employment Consultants found that, between December 1994 and January 1995, 60 per cent. of current vacancies contained an age-related restriction, and the Employment Service conducted surveys and found that some 28 per cent. of all vacancies carried age restrictions, so the situation is much more serious than shown in yesterday's edition of The Daily Telegraph.
Mr. Bruce:
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman,but he makes my point, not his own. What he just quoted was the age discrimination that is contained in the requirements that are given to employment agencies and to the Department for Education and Employment, not what is contained in advertisements, which is what his Bill is about: prohibiting the use of upper age limits in advertisements for vacancies, so that people will know that they are being discriminated against. That is so important, and I shall deal with that a little later in my speech.
I did not stop with The Daily Telegraph, because that would demonstrate that I was simply being insufficient in my studies of what is happening in advertising. I asked my good lady wife to get out the Dorset Evening Echo, our local newspaper, which is distributed six nights a week. She took the most recent week as being the most relevant to the case. The hon. Gentleman might have cured the problem simply by getting the point across to people that it is foolish for them to say publicly that they are thinking of discriminating against people on age ranges.
Mr. Bruce:
I shall make this point and then I shall gladly give way to the hon. Gentleman.
In the Dorset Evening Echo, there were 195 advertisements. Three of the jobs advertised had an upper age range. There were more advertisements with a lower age range--taxi companies and so on--and advertisements that said "mature" than those that tried to include an upper age range.
Mr. Winnick:
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way to me a second time. In a survey on 21 and 27 January this year, the Financial Times found that some 16 per cent. of advertisements mentioned an age restriction. In The Daily Telegraph and The Sunday Telegraph, the figure was 15.2 per cent., and in The Times and The Sunday Times it was 14.6 per cent. Yesterday's paper may have been an exception. Is the hon. Gentleman
Mr. Bruce:
Are those figures for 1996 or 1995?
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