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Mr. Banks: I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman again, but I do not intend to talk out my hon. Friend's Bill unwittingly by giving way. I shall give way for the purposes of debate, although I had not intended to speak for more than 10 minutes.
Mr. Spring: I do not wish to overwork the point but, essentially, the hon. Gentleman has admitted that anti-age discrimination legislation on the statute book would have no practical effect. That is borne out by evidence gathered from abroad.
Therefore, the Government's voluntary efforts to change the culture through the publications and through applying pressure to jobcentres and employment agencies are the right approach. People complain about too much legislation and too many rules and regulations. The Bill is simply adding to that, without having a direct and positive effect.
Mr. Banks:
I never said that the Bill would have no practical effect. No one can give a 100 per cent. guarantee that any piece of legislation will work 100 per cent. That would be absurd. One hopes more or less to meet the objectives that the Act is there to achieve. If 100 per cent. success were the criterion, we would never pass any legislation.
The proposal must be used and judged as it stands,on its own. All the Bill does is make one particular proposal about age discrimination in job advertisements. That provision is welcome, and it has been fostered and long advocated by Age Concern, an organisation specifically geared to looking after the over-50s and to working for their economic and social benefit.
The Carnegie Third Age programme said specifically that legislation to "outlaw agism" as such did not work, and I accept that point, but if organisations such as Carnegie Third Age and Age Concern say that this proposal will be to some advantage, and advocate the measure, I am prepared to take it and see how it works.
The hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Spring) talked about voluntarism. I always prefer voluntarism to legal forms of remedy, because clearly we do not want to go round putting more and more laws on the statute book. We already have far too many. But we do not pass laws simply because we are on a big job creation scheme of our own here in the House of Commons. We do it because,in so many areas of activity in our lives, both economic and social, voluntarism, good behaviour and best practice simply do not exist. Our duty is to encourage.
Legislation is there to encourage as much as to punish, and the Bill is encouraging rather than punishing legislation. That being so, it is gentle, it is not extreme in any way, and it is supported by organisations such as Age Concern. We should give it a fair wind today and see how it goes. I am not going very well myself, in that I am not making much progress in what I wanted to say, but I hope that what I have said in answer to interventions has been helpful.
What distresses me most about age discrimination in employment is the appalling waste of older workers' talent and experience that it represents. I was recently on a fact-finding trip--[Interruption.]--it was a genuine fact-finding trip on that occasion. I was in the company of Lord King--[Interruption.]--and a very good travelling companion he is. One would always get good treatment on British Airways when travelling with its president.I somehow felt that that would probably happen, and it did.
Lord King and I share a passion for many things, one of which is manufacturing. I wanted to see Boeing, and we went to Seattle. It was wonderful to see people producing those enormous aircraft, and to see a company that puts its whole reputation and financial structure on the line every time it brings out a new product. To use an American expression, it was awesome.
What I found interesting, and what is relevant to the Bill, was the fact that a B52 was being reconstructed. Boeing was using apprentices to learn crafts and skills that had gone out of use because there is no more demand for handmade pieces of equipment. Retired Boeing workers were coming in and working with the apprentices on the B52. The older workers were getting some expenses, but they were not being paid wages, and they could put their talents and experience at the disposal of the young guys starting out in the job of manufacturing for Boeing.
That struck me as a heartening scheme. Those guys said, "I don't want to sit at home and read books or watch television all day. I want to be able to carry on giving young workers the benefit of my experience and skills."
That is what we must do. Age discrimination can stop that happening. I acknowledge that there are some such schemes in this country. but more should be encouraged.
Mrs. Gillan:
I intervene to support the hon. Gentleman's line. As he is so enthusiastic about British Airways, does he know about B and Q? That company originally started employing older workers as an experiment, but it proved such a success that it has become a selling point. People such as the hon. Gentleman and me, who go into DIY stores not really knowing what they want, can rely on an older person for his or her expert advice. The employment of older people is spreading across the country, and is welcome.I intervened merely to support the hon. Gentleman with an example of a company with which I have not travelled abroad.
Mr. Banks:
The Minister should not make the assumption that I cannot B and Q it. My hands are callused from years of work in the field. I am a horny-handed son of toil who knows something about do-it-yourself. Otherwise, the hon. Lady is absolutely right. People out shopping are much encouraged to see an older assistant, on whose experience they can draw.
Mrs. Gillan:
My point was that the employment of older people has been achieved without legislation.
Mr. Banks:
But that one case does not answer all the discrimination that is found in advertisements and work practices. The fact that the Minister and I are conjoined in a particular example does not mean that legislation should not be used as a form of encouragement for employers who do not, for one reason or another, follow the good practices of B and Q, Boeing or British Airways. If those other firms are required to adopt good practices, they might realise what they have been missing for so long.
About 52 Members of Parliament have announced their intention not to stand at the next general election. It is always best to go quietly, before one is pushed, so they are probably right. All those hon. Members are in their mid-40s and older. The youngest is a Minister aged about 44. I suspect that they have already got jobs lined up, or will be able to secure alternative employment. Such opportunities are not available to most people in their 40s and 50s.
Mr. Mark Robinson:
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Banks:
Is the hon. Gentleman trying to stay on after the next general election?
Mr. Robinson:
I certainly plan to be here after the next election. The hon. Gentleman mentioned that many Members of Parliament on both sides of the House will not be standing again. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman can enlighten me about the Labour party's selection procedures. Does it practise agism, or are candidates of all ages welcome to appear before selection committees?
Mr. Banks:
The hon. Gentleman might intend to stay in Parliament, but we will wait to see whether that
Age discrimination legislation is not needed in the Labour party, because there is no question of it setting an age limit in its recruitment advertising. As to inviting applications for parliamentary selection, age does not come into it. The Labour party, like a number of good employers, follows best practice.
There is another problem to do with selection. One reason why the Labour party, in its wisdom, decided to go for all-women shortlists was to ensure that what was said was then followed up in practice. It will not surprise hon. Members to hear that what political parties say publicly is not always followed right through when it comes to implementation. There is nothing exceptional about that. We thought that we would deal with the problem directly. Unfortunately, someone challenged us in law--but when we see discrimination, we must try to work against it.
Mr. Ian Bruce:
The hon. Gentleman has succeeded in making a stunning point about introducing legislation that has an effect opposite to the one intended. The Labour party tried to bring more women into the House, but has been prevented from so doing by legislation. Should we not therefore be careful--
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. We are not debating women; we are debating a Bill about age discrimination. Can we now get back to it?
Mr. Banks:
Indeed, Mr. Deputy Speaker. That is an interesting point about any legislation. We can never be certain that what we pass here will work. Sometimes the legislation, once tested, turns out faulty. The good intentions behind the Labour party's all-women shortlists fell foul of the law, but that means only that the law needs to be improved, not that we need to scrap it.
We can surely all agree that discrimination on the ground of sex is wrong, and that discrimination on the ground of age is also wrong. If we do not get it right first time, we have to start again. We are not infallible here, and we do not always get it right first time. We all learned an interesting lesson from what happened to the Labour party recently.
The hon. Member for South Dorset says that he does not discriminate in respect of female secretaries. I accept that, but I suspect that many employers certainly discriminate in terms of age when hiring secretaries. Indeed, I suspect that some hon. Members discriminate in terms of age when employing research assistants and secretaries. There is plenty of evidence all around us of such activities.
There is age discrimination in the media, particularly when it comes to presenters of programmes. How many female presenters of television programmes who are over 50 can hon. Members name? There is probably one--there usually is--but I suspect that that will be about it. Most of them conform to a formula which we all know but which I do not intend to repeat in this House.
The same does not apply to men, however. There are plenty of male news presenters over the age of 50.Hon. Members will remember old Reggie Bosanquet.
ITN carried on employing him until he was practically falling to bits. I remember his preposterous wig--even the hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire (Mr. Fabricant) would not deign to wear such a wig. No television company would ever have employed a woman who ended up looking as rough as dear old Reggie.
The hon. Member for South Dorset also said that we do not need legislation to end age discrimination.He might have used the same arguments about racism, sexism and people with disabilities. He said that the market would do the job. I do not accept that. I would like to accept it; I am not someone who wants to pass legislation for the pure joy of it. We could be doing other things if everyone followed best practice.
The hon. Gentleman said that equality of wages had not been achieved. On the other hand, women now constitute more than 50 per cent of the work force--although it is not entirely certain how much legislation has had to do with that. I wonder how much monitoring of the legislation the Department is doing to find out to what extent it--the legislation--is responsible for that statistic.
I know, however, that the Government abolished wages councils. I know also that 80 per cent. of workers covered by the councils were women. Anyone who is complaining about low wages for women should have well in mind the Tory party's deliberate decision to scrap wages councils.
Was the hon. Member for South Dorset saying that we would improve race relations by scrapping the legislation that relates to them? Would we improve the situation for people with disabilities if we scrapped the legislation that was designed to assist them? I cannot believe that the hon. Gentleman was adopting that approach. If he was, however, he could not be more incorrect. That would be impossible.
The hon. Gentleman said, I believe, that we cannot put the genie back into the bottle. I would not use the word "genie". We are certainly not talking about an evil genie. Legislation was found to be necessary, and it is still necessary. If it has not worked, it is wrong to assert that it should not be on the statute book. Instead, it should be enhanced or improved. I am sure that we would agree that discrimination on the ground of sex or race is anathema, and must not be acceptable to any civilised person.
Age discrimination is a waste of human resources.In 12 years' time, for the first time ever, Britain's over-50 population will be larger than the 15 to 44 age group. That is a statistic that we would do well to bear in mind. It is depressing to find that between a quarter and a third of all advertised jobs stipulate age limits. I have mentioned already how often people come into my office to tell me how depressing it is to try to obtain a job in these circumstances.
A recent survey showed that six out of every10 employers sought under-35s to fill vacancies. Indeed,on reading advertisements, 35 seems to be the upper age limit. We are talking of people in their late 40s and into their 50s, but in many respects 35 seems to be the upper age limit.
I have acknowledged that legislation against agism would be difficult, if not impossible, to enforce. The Carnegie Third Age programme would go along with that. That programme, however, has done an incredible amount of good work. It has sought to nurture and promote good practices in the employment of older workers. It has sought also to end age bars in legislation. That is one of
its proposals. It makes age part of its equal opportunity agenda, and provides guidance to employees on the transition from work to retirement in advance so that they might have time to explore options. We need to encourage employers to adopt those practices.
Perhaps we should change entirely the way in which we organise work. It is clear that technology now is not creating new jobs. Whenever there is a technological advance in manufacturing industry, commerce or banking, for example, it tends to mean that fewer jobs are available. Technology nowadays is about fewer people working.We are seeing labour-saving developments, not labour-encouraging ones.
We need more retraining, so that people can be retrained throughout a working life. Employees should be able to take advantage of technological changes. We need to consider a shorter working day, week or year. Perhaps we need longer holidays and earlier retirement. These issues will have to be considered, because technology is moving forward at a great pace.
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