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12.24 pm
Mr. Richard Spring (Bury St. Edmunds): I thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate.
Before I move on to the substance of what I have to say, and I say this sincerely, I congratulate the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick), who made a persuasive argument and raised an important issue of principle that we need to examine--age discrimination in society. Every hon. Member would agree that it is wholly undesirable. It seems to me that, in oriental societies, which, perhaps, are more successful than our own, the old are valued much more substantially than they are in western industrial societies. It is rather sad that, during the past 50 or 60 years, such an emphasis has been placed on young people to the exclusion of old people in so many characterisations of what is seen to be good and acceptable.
The essential issue at stake is simply whether legislation will be helpful and whether it will it work.I shall examine that in the next few minutes, but first I make a general point. It is crucial to provide employment opportunities for all people as far as that is possible. The Government have a role in that. Therefore, in order to provide the right economic environment so that everybody of any age group can find employment in future, it is crucial to have low taxation, low inflation and a steadily growing economy. Such a macro-economic environment is right for old and young, irrespective of their age.
Almost uniquely in western Europe, we have seen the success of policies to reduce unemployment, which has fallen by about 750,000 in the past two or three years, and opportunities for people in the 50 to 60 age group have been created. In other parts of Europe, unemployment has risen: it is more than 3 million in France and more than4 million in Germany. In this country, it is heading down towards 8 per cent. In my constituency, happily, it is only 4.3 per cent.
However desirable legislation may be in principle and in theory, the macro-economic background is the crucial determinant of employment opportunities for any age group. That is at the heart of what we need to look at.So often, what appears desirable on the face of it turns out not to be so. Let us look, for example, at minimum wage legislation, which may seem to address a certain problem. The fact is that by the time one has added differentials to a minimum wage, the net result--as we see all over Europe--is massively higher unemployment than in countries such as the United Kingdom where such legislation does not exist. We also know that employment on-costs, which would flow from the social chapter, would drive jobs away from Europe, greatly to the detriment of everybody who wishes to work in our countries. In the United Kingdom, non-wage labour costs account for 15 per cent. of labour costs. They account for 29 per cent. in France, 24 per cent. in Germany and21 per cent. in Spain. Crucially, those elements drive jobs away, for whatever age group.
I have run a business and always made it a point of principle to value the experience of individuals--who are, perhaps, more mature in years--for what they have to offer. The maturity and wisdom that comes from having worked for a long time is an irreplaceable phenomenon, and those people are often more stable and rooted than younger people. It makes enormous sense, therefore, to hire people who are more mature, who are older, and I sought to do so when I was an employer. That is a sensible decision.
We should also consider the demographic aspect.By the year 2000, 1.3 million fewer people under the age of 25 will be entering the labour market. In 1993, there were 1 million fewer 16 to 19-year-olds than there were in 1983, a fall of 28 per cent. By the year 2000, 46 per cent. of workers will be in the 35 to 54 age group, compared with only 40 per cent. in 1988, and 40 per cent. of the work force will be aged 45 or over. Although economic activity among women between the ages of 55 and 59 has risen, it has declined among men. During the next few years, fewer and fewer young people will enter the work force, and employers will be forced to hire more mature workers. Because of the demographic shift, that is already beginning to happen.
I agree with those who have said that we should not adopt a negative attitude to the problem of age discrimination, which is wrong in both principle and practice. People who have worked for a long time become stereotyped, and are considered dispensable; it is felt that they cannot add to the corporate effort as a younger person can. As a major employer, the Government have a role to play, and--as my hon. Friend the Minister has said--they are setting an example by means of best
practice. Their efforts to persuade people to change their attitudes voluntarily, rather than as a result of legislation, are now beginning to bear fruit.
More people are employed in the United Kingdom than in any other major European Union country. When we compare our labour market with those of other industrialised countries, we can feel confident because our employment policies are more successful than those of many of our competitors.
The Government have clearly stated that they are opposed to age discrimination, and I believe that all hon. Members agree in principle, but there is no denying that some employers are foolish enough to practise such discrimination. As I have said, my own experience tells me that that is unwise.
In an Adjournment debate, the Minister of State, Home Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone(Miss Widdecombe), said that there was no evidence that anti-agism legislation worked in 20-odd countries where it operated, particularly in France and the United States. In fact, there is no point in putting legislation on the statute book if it is not going to work, just because establishing the principle makes one feel better.
Mr. Forman:
Is it not possible that the position of elderly people in France and the United States might have been worse without such legislation?
Mr. Spring:
My hon. Friend makes a fair point, but I do not think that it holds water. Participation rates are better in the United Kingdom than in countries where those laws exist.
My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary has talked about the various publications that the Government have issued to convince employers that discrimination in the workplace against older people is undesirable, foolish and not in the commercial interest of companies. A campaign called "Getting On" was launched by the Department for Employment in 1994, and 32,000 copies of the publication have been distributed. The idea is to encourage debate among employers and make them face up to the fact that there is good sense in employing older workers. I believe there is some evidence that that is working.
The "Too Old, Who Says?" campaign has been designed to encourage employees. The essential message is not to give up, think about the future, be positive and get retrained. The facilities and opportunities for retraining are certainly there. That campaign was launched about a year ago and some 13,000 copies of the leaflet have been distributed.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris):
Order.I apologise for interrupting the hon. Member, but I must point out to hon. Members that even on Friday it is not permissible to do their mail or to read newspapers behind the Benches. This is a debating Chamber.
Mr. Spring:
The Government are setting a valid example and I am sure that the hon. Member for Walsall, North accepts that. The Government have scrapped age limits for central civil service recruitment, and jobcentres are now positively discouraged from allowing notices of employment possibilities to be displayed if they contain age limits. I have seen and checked that in my
The fruits of the campaign are demonstrated by the fact that important employers and companies, which we admire as great commercial success stories, such as Marks and Spencer plc, Bovis Ltd., Midland Bank plc, the TSB Group plc and others, are following that route. We are trying to change attitudes voluntarily and that is now happening in practice. I hope that my hon. Friends who take a different view will accept that substantial progress is being made, not only by the Government but, increasingly, by the private sector.
In January, a few weeks ago, the "Age Works" booklet was launched to be used specifically by recruitment agencies and employment businesses. It emphasises the importance of attracting older people into the work force.
I have read the report of a study that was done in 1993 by Mr. Jim Conway. That report mentioned the damage that the stop-go economic policies that have been followed since the war had done to the older worker.Mr. Conway produced evidence to suggest that the stop-go cycle has a more damaging effect on older population groups. However, what the Government have been trying to do since the general election is to reverse completely the whole stop-go mentality and create a stable environment of low inflation and steady economic growth, which is much more conducive to an orderly and growing employment market.
Mr. Ian McCartney:
On a point of clarification, which election does the hon. Gentleman mean--1979, 1983, 1987 or 1992--after which those policies were introduced?
Mr. Spring:
I am the first person to admit that, since the war, we have had a policy of stop-go. That happened--I wish it had not--under both Conservative and Labour Governments. However, since 1992, the Government have clearly been absolutely committed to a macro-economic framework that throws those stop-go policies, which have been so damaging to our long-term performance, out of the window. Compared with other industrialised countries, we are doing very well on inflation, employment creation, exports and all the other elements that were lacking in the past, and that surely proves our commitment not to return to the inflationary cycle. If the hon. Gentleman is objective, he will accept that. Our policies have not been without difficulty, but they are certainly paying off and in the next general election the hon. Gentleman will recognise their true value.
A number of elements are coming together. I have spoken about demography. That and a better economic environment and the realisation among many employers of the value of older workers are all coming together to the benefit of employment opportunities for older people, without the need to reach for legislation. That climate will continue to improve and the culture and attitudes to which I alluded are being strengthened all the time.
Surveys among business groupings and managers have sought to discover how the matter should be treated.I think that in one survey 80 per cent. said that there should be an active attempt to tackle discrimination
against older people. However, those people were certainly not clear about whether that should be done by legislation or voluntarily. I am a vice-chairman of the Small Business Bureau and yesterday I had an opportunity to discuss the matter with a number of small business men and business women who are bureau members. The overwhelming view was that although legislation was desirable in principle, the voluntary approach sponsored by Government and led by many of our larger corporations and success stories in the commercial field was having a clear and specific impact. Despite the contrary views of some other organisations, the Confederation of British Industry certainly takes the view that legislation would be an additional constraint on entrepreneurial activity. I certainly support that view.
The Opposition say that the Bill would be a first step and that it would send out a signal. We must address that but, in practice, even if the upper age limit were removed from advertisements, there would still be a multitude of ways by which an employer who wished to discriminate would be able to glean information about a potential candidate. Therefore, in practice the measure might not be workable.
There are other areas, such as training and promotion, which are key parts of the employer-employee relationship, which the Bill does not begin to address. The legislation would be difficult to monitor, and in practice it could probably be got round. It would have no practical effect at a time when the public feel that we legislate excessively in any case.
At the heart of the issue is whether anti-discrimination legislation works. That is the crucial question, because there is no point in passing a Bill that sounds good and perhaps makes us feel good as we all agree on its principle if, in practice, it will have no desirable effect.
It is worth looking at the participation rate of those between the ages of 55 and 64 in countries where there is such legislation. In the United States, it is 66.4 per cent. for males and 46.3 per cent. for females; in Canada, it is 62 per cent. and 36.4 per cent.; in France, it is 44 per cent. and 30.2 per cent.; in Australia, it is 61.4 per cent. and 24.8 per cent.; in New Zealand, it is 56.7 per cent.and 32.7 per cent.; and in Spain, it is 60.6 per cent. and 20.3 per cent. The only reason why I produce those statistics is to compare them with the United Kingdom's. Without any legislation, the participation rate in the UK for males is 65.7 per cent. and for females 39 per cent., substantially higher than in many of the countries where there is legislation. Surely that must be the crucial determinant of what happens in practice.
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