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Mr. Ian McCartney: The Minister may like to consider one small piece of evidence: since W. H. Smith agreed to adopt a completely non-agist policy in recruitment, training and retention, the company has saved £800,000.
Mrs. Gillan: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. You have taken a line out of one of my presentations to the Older Workers Roadshow. I presume that you have read the text of my speech, and I congratulate you. Part of my argument is that it makes good business and economic sense not to discriminate against older worker applicants. However, I am talking about the compliance costs associated with the legislation should a company or an individual take a case to the courts or the tribunals. I am making a different point.
Mr. McCartney: It is not a different point. As the Minister said, the point of principle is that it is good business not to discriminate against older workers,as W. H. Smith has proved. As to her point about compliance costs, when someone complies with the law--the Conservatives are the party of law and order--there is no cost; but if someone decides not to comply with the law, that is their personal choice. I suggest to you that, when people see the benefits that have accrued toW. H. Smith, the overwhelming majority will be more than willing to comply with any legislation in that field.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Could we remember to refer to each other as hon. Members, Ministers or whatever term is appropriate, rather than using the second person pronoun?
Mrs. Gillan: I hope that I have not broken the rules of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I apologise, if it was me, but it may have been the hon. Member for Makerfield (Mr. McCartney).
Mr. Deputy Speaker: For clarification, I can tell the Minister that both parties were at fault.
Mrs. Gillan: I apologise unreservedly, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
Mr. Dalyell: May I be clear about what the Minister was saying? Will any costs be incurred other than by those who have offended against the law? Surely any costs would be incurred by those who have broken the law.I do not see what other costs there could be.
Mrs. Gillan: Let me develop my theme, but I shall come back to the hon. Gentleman's question. The costs to
which I refer are, in particular, those associated with the change in recruitment practices within organisations. They may or may not have jobs on offer that meet some of the exclusions that the hon. Member for Walsall, North envisages. So should the Bill become law, there would be initial costs for people who had not yet transgressed.I promise that I shall revisit that point later.
The hon. Member for Linlithgow said something that struck home with me, when he painted a powerful picture of the relationship between grandparents and younger people. I must declare an interest, in case the hon. Member for Makerfield jumps up again--I am a step-grandmother.
Mr. McCartney:
I can trump that, because I believe that I am the youngest grandfather in the House, with five grandsons so far and another one on the way.
Mrs. Gillan:
Obviously the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman and I are working as a double act, because I hoped that he would take up that opening. May I be one of the last to congratulate him? That is a powerful record, and we have something in common.
The hon. Member for Linlithgow raised the theme of grandparents seriously, so I shall return to it seriously.I have had the good fortune to visit the far east, and I was struck by the aspect of its culture whereby, when people of working age have children, the grandparents invariably stop work to take care of them, which allows the parents, who are at their most economically productive, to continue to bring their income into the family. That idea has stayed with me as an example of good practice.
I like the extended family. My grandmother lived with us all my life, and until the day she died I had the good fortune of having that older person there to give me counsel and to take care of me. From a parent's point of view, there is no better person to look after one's most precious asset, one's child, than one's own parent. I think that the hon. Gentleman would recognise that point, because it is worth emphasising.
My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East(Mr. Dykes) said in a brief speech that he entirely supported the Bill. As he is a sponsor of the Bill, that was absolutely right. Age Concern does terrific work, and, like the hon. Member for Walsall, North, my hon. Friend is briefed by that organisation. I do not want any of my remarks to be taken as casting aspersions on the work of that august body.
My hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset(Mr. Bruce) came in for some stick, which made me rather sad, because he was the first person to speak in favour--or rather, against the Bill and in favour of the line that I am taking. My hon. Friend has had experience of recruitment, and the hon. Member for Makerfield must acknowledge that there is nothing more powerful than someone speaking from experience.
I was extremely grateful for the in-depth contribution of the hon. Member for Linlithgow, and the House is a wiser place for it. The hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) agreed that the Bill would not have much effect, yet went on to support it. At least the hon. Member for Walsall, North is behind his Bill body and soul. The hon. Member for Newham, North-West was behind it in a half-hearted fashion.
Mr. Tony Banks:
I was not being half-hearted but realistic, in respect of agism. I said that the Bill,
Mrs. Gillan:
When I challenged the hon. Gentleman on the information that he gives constituents who visit his surgery, and asked him about "Too Old, Who Says?", "Age Works" and "Getting On", he appeared not to know about those publications.
Mr. Banks:
There may be many reasons for the Minister caring to visit my constituency--we will not go into all of them. If she comes to the reception area in my office, she will find Government publications waiting for people to read, and those titles are also on display.
Mrs. Gillan:
I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has put the record straight. I hope that he has read those publications himself.
Mr. Banks:
That is another matter.
Mrs. Gillan:
It is another matter. I advise the hon. Gentleman to read those documents chapter and verse, from cover to cover--not least because they prove that the Government are doing something. However, the hon. Member for Newham, North-West appears to be growing old gracefully.
Mr. Banks:
How sweet. Perhaps the Minister and I can grow old gracefully together.
Mrs. Gillan:
I think that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, would advise me to refuse that offer.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds(Mr. Spring) contributed some pertinent points. He has made his apologies, because he had to leave to attend surgery matters in his constituency.
My hon. Friend mentioned oriental society. In the course of visiting Japan, I saw the older person at work in a commercial setting. I will refer to the person as the sleeper. In negotiations, a senior man is invariably present--albeit I would appreciate seeing the occasional senior woman. That individual neither comments nor contributes in any other way to the meeting, but he is extremely important.
Even if he appears to sleep during the negotiations, behind the scenes, when the decision is being made to proceed with the contract or to continue the business in hand, the sleeper will turn out to be a senior representative of the company who knows the business inside out.He brings the benefit of his advice and years to bear on the company's business. That is an excellent practice, and more businesses could benefit from the advice of senior people. My hon. Friend did not believe that we need to reach for legislation, which he thought would be difficult to monitor and excessive.
My hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Robinson) has also sent his apologies. He has some distance to travel, to attend to surgery matters in his constituency, but he was keen to make a contribution to this important debate. My hon. Friend was not unhappy to see the Bill further discussed in Committee, and he
certainly gave us some good ideas for encouraging the establishment of a code of practice. All hon. Members' contributions have greatly added to the debate.
I should now like to express my own thoughts. The hon. Member for Walsall, North knows that this legislation is not complete. He wrote about his Bill inThe House Magazine and called for the end of discrimination on the ground of age, and said:
He is kind to acknowledge my support of his good intentions; however, he says "legislate", and I say "persuade and educate". That is the hair's-breadth difference between us; we want to achieve the same ends.
I know that age discrimination is practised by some employers and agree that it is unjust, makes no economic sense and must be eliminated. However, this Bill will not eliminate age discrimination because it can be practised at every stage of the recruitment and employment process.
Age discrimination can be present in advertisements, but it can also be manifested at many other levels. Hon. Members should think about that, because, if we rule out age discrimination in advertisements, it can be practised at the selection for interview, at the selection for the job, and it can certainly be practised when it comes to career development and promotion. I do not think that one hon. Member would disagree that discrimination can occur at all those stages.
The Government are totally opposed to all forms of age discrimination, but there is a real prospect that simply banning upper age limits in advertisements will shift the issue further down the recruitment chain.
"It is, of course, true that banning job ads that refer to age will not in itself end such discriminatory conduct."
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