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6.51 pm
The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of Public Service (Mr. David Willetts): The right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Foster) invited hon. Members to rise above party politics, but that may have been a rather optimistic thought, faced with the winding-up speech in a Supply day debate. We have been particularly urged to rise up above party politics and not to prejudge the Scott report. I have not read it, and I will not comment on it today, save to say that in the past three years we have experienced conspicuous attempts to prejudge that report led by, for example, the hon. Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook). I must say that I thought that the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan) seemed to prejudge the way in which the Government had set up that inquiry.
Some questions have been asked about accountability and responsibility. The right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland and the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland asked about the distinction between the two. Perhaps it will help the House if I try to explain the distinction that we are making. The terminology may or may not be new, but the terminology is not the point; the thought behind the terminology is an old and well-established one.
The thought is that a Minister is accountable to Parliament for everything that goes on within his or her Department, in the sense that Parliament can call the Minister to account for it. The Minister, however, is responsible for the policies of the Department, including its agencies; for the framework within which those policies are delivered; for the resources allocated; for such decisions as the framework document held by next steps agency heads may require to be referred to him; and for responding to major failures or expressions of parliamentary or public concern.
A Minister cannot, however, be sensibly held to be responsible for everything that goes on in his Department in the sense of having personal knowledge and control of every action taken, and being personally blameworthy when tasks in relation to which he has no personal involvement are carried out incompetently.
Mr. Beith:
If a Minister has intervened in a way that does not fit within the list of principles that the Minister has just given, is he then responsible for the consequences of his intervention?
Mr. Willetts:
The right hon. Gentleman may have in mind the Prison Service, which I shall consider in a moment.
The explanation is that accountability is exercised for everything that goes on in the Department, and responsibility for matters for which the Minister can legitimately be held personally responsible. If one tries to extend personal responsibility to everything that goes on within a Department, the doctrine in effect becomes meaningless and incredible.
Miss Emma Nicholson:
The Minister has properly pointed out that it is the thinking behind his remarks that
Mr. Willetts:
That is a rather eccentric point, but one which we should expect from a member of the Liberal Democrats.
I am trying to address the fundamental doctrine about ministerial accountability and responsibility. The Prison Service offers a clear example of how that doctrine applies in practice. The Home Secretary is accountable to Parliament for the Prison Service, and it is his responsibility to lay down its policies. He is accountable and responsible to Parliament for those policies, but responsibility for day-to-day management has been delegated to the director general of the Prison Service. In his report, Sir John Learmont made no criticism of the Home Secretary's policies, but made serious criticisms about the way in which the Prison Service had been run.
Mr. Derek Foster:
If the Home Secretary continually interferes in operational matters within the Prison Service--I do not necessarily blame him for doing so if political issues arise in the House or in the tabloids--and makes the operation of the service impossible, what is the position on responsibility and accountability?
Mr. Willetts:
Ministers are, of course, entitled to intervene in specific operational matters. Should information come to Ministers' attention that policy is not being properly implemented or that an operational matter is causing concern, they would be failing in their duty to Parliament and to the public if they ignored such information and did nothing.
In the few minutes left to me, I should like to make a small number of simple points that have been lost in the elaborate arguments of the debate. First, many claims were made about membership of quangos and appointments to them. I have done some research on such appointments, and I discovered that, in 1979, the last year of the previous Labour Government, there were 39 members of the Trades Union Congress general council. I invite hon. Members to consider how many appointments to public bodies those 39 members may have held. [Hon. Members: "Twenty."] I hear 20, but no, not even 50. [Hon. Members: "A hundred."] No, the answer is more than 100. [Hon. Members: "One hundred and fifty."] The answer is more than that. Those 39 members of the TUC general council had between them 180 public appointments. That is an average of four and a half each.
That approach to appointments to quangos quite understandably brought that Labour Government into disrepute. It is in striking contrast to our approach--I address in particular the remarks of the hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman)--with the appointment of Sir Len Peach. In his role of scrutinising
public appointments, he ensures that they are all proper and correct. If there is any known political background to someone who receives a public appointment, that is made publicly known.
My hon. Friend the Member for Gravesham (Mr. Arnold) made some important points about the policies of the Liberal Democrats. Today the Liberal Democrats have talked a lot about accountability to Parliament. However, they believe in a massive extension of qualified majority voting--so that a Minister will have a clear responsibility to the House, will have a clear position on which he should be negotiating in Europe, and will have lost the power to deliver the policy for which he was responsible to the House. That is the biggest single threat to ministerial accountability.
The Liberal Democrats also referred to quangos--in fact, they proposed 892 new quangos: new Ministries, new levels of regional government, an industrial partnership agency, a judicial services commission, a national statistical commission, an animal protection commission, a fruit commission, a drugs commission, a national qualification council, a general teaching council, a humanities research council--I could go on. The creation of 892 new quangos would completely undermine the ability of the House to hold Ministers to account for their policies. Therefore, it is clear that the House should reject the motion tabled by the Liberal Democrats and instead support the amendment in the name of the Government.
Question put, That the original words stand part of the Question:--
The House divided: Ayes 39, Noes 247.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly negatived.
Question, That the proposed words be there added, put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 30 (Questions on amendments), and agreed to.
Mr. Deputy Speaker forthwith declared the main Question, as amended, to be agreed to.
AYES
Alton, David
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy
Barnes, Harry
Beith, Rt Hon A J
Bennett, Andrew F
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Campbell-Savours, D N
Canavan, Dennis
Chidgey, David
Clapham, Michael
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Corbyn, Jeremy
Davies, Chris (L'Boro & S'worth)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Faulds, Andrew
Godman, Dr Norman A
Harvey, Nick
Hughes, Simon (Southwark)
Johnston, Sir Russell
Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Kennedy, Charles (Ross,C&S)
Lynne, Ms Liz
Maclennan, Robert
Maddock, Diana
Mahon, Alice
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute)
Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)
Paisley, The Reverend Ian
Rendel, David
Salmond, Alex
Skinner, Dennis
Spearing, Nigel
Steel, Rt Hon Sir David
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Tyler, Paul
Wallace, James
Wareing, Robert N
Mr. Archy Kirkwood and
Mr. Don Foster.
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)
Alexander, Richard
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)
Amess, David
Ancram, Rt Hon Michael
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)
Atkins, Rt Hon Robert
Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E)
Baker, Rt Hon Kenneth (Mole V)
Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset)
Baldry, Tony
Bates, Michael
Bellingham, Henry
Bendall, Vivian
Beresford, Sir Paul
Body, Sir Richard
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Booth, Hartley
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia
Bowden, Sir Andrew
Bowis, John
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Sir Graham
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Brown, M (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Ian (Dorset)
Budgen, Nicholas
Burt, Alistair
Butler, Peter
Carlisle, John (Luton North)
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln)
Carrington, Matthew
Cash, William
Chapman, Sir Sydney
Clappison, James
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ru'clif)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coe, Sebastian
Colvin, Michael
Congdon, David
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Couchman, James
Cran, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)
Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)
Davies, Quentin (Stamford)
Day, Stephen
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Devlin, Tim
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Dover, Den
Duncan, Alan
Duncan-Smith, Iain
Dunn, Bob
Durant, Sir Anthony
Dykes, Hugh
Eggar, Rt Hon Tim
Elletson, Harold
Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Fishburn, Dudley
Forman, Nigel
Forsyth, Rt Hon Michael (Stirling)
Forth, Eric
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
French, Douglas
Gale, Roger
Gardiner, Sir George
Garel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan
Garnier, Edward
Gill, Christopher
Gillan, Cheryl
Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Gorst, Sir John
Grant, Sir A (SW Cambs)
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Grylls, Sir Michael
Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn
Hague, Rt Hon William
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Hampson, Dr Keith
Hanley, Rt Hon Jeremy
Hannam, Sir John
Hargreaves, Andrew
Harris, David
Hawkins, Nick
Hawksley, Warren
Hayes, Jerry
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David
Hendry, Charles
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael
Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence
Hill, James (Southampton Test)
Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)
Horam, John
Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)
Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas
Jack, Michael
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jenkin, Bernard
Jessel, Toby
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Jones, Robert B (W Hertfdshr)
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
Key, Robert
King, Rt Hon Tom
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knapman, Roger
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Rt Hon Greg (Derby N)
Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)
Kynoch, George (Kincardine)
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Legg, Barry
Leigh, Edward
Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark
Lidington, David
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Lord, Michael
Luff, Peter
MacGregor, Rt Hon John
MacKay, Andrew
Maclean, Rt Hon David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Maitland, Lady Olga
Malone, Gerald
Mans, Keith
Marland, Paul
Marlow, Tony
Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Merchant, Piers
Mills, Iain
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Moate, Sir Roger
Molyneaux, Rt Hon Sir James
Monro, Rt Hon Sir Hector
Needham, Rt Hon Richard
Nelson, Anthony
Neubert, Sir Michael
Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Nicholls, Patrick
Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Norris, Steve
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Patnick, Sir Irvine
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Pawsey, James
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Porter, David (Waveney)
Rathbone, Tim
Redwood, Rt Hon John
Renton, Rt Hon Tim
Richards, Rod
Riddick, Graham
Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm
Robathan, Andrew
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)
Sainsbury, Rt Hon Sir Timothy
Scott, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian
Shepherd, Sir Colin (Hereford)
Shersby, Sir Michael
Sims, Roger
Skeet, Sir Trevor
Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Spencer, Sir Derek
Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)
Spink, Dr Robert
Spring, Richard
Sproat, Iain
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Stern, Michael
Streeter, Gary
Sweeney, Walter
Sykes, John
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Thurnham, Peter
Townend, John (Bridlington)
Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)
Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael
Trotter, Neville
Twinn, Dr Ian
Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Viggers, Peter
Walden, George
Waller, Gary
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel
Watts, John
Wells, Bowen
Whitney, Ray
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Ann
Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld)
Wolfson, Mark
Wood, Timothy
Yeo, Tim
Mr. Derek Conway and
Mr. Simon Burns.
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