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Mr. Michael: With the leave of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker. This is an important issue and it has been an interesting short debate. However, it is clear that there are no simple easy answers to the problem. The righthon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) accepted that his solution does not do the job, so the House is left without a solution.
The Minister accepted, as we do, that the public should have a simple means of raising an issue that gives rise to concern--one in which they feel they have been threatened, intimidated or otherwise wronged. The means of reaching such an accommodation should be simple. However, there are the reservations to which the Minister rightly referred. We do not want to open the books or destroy the confidentiality of the work of the Security Service.
The idea that every form of discipline should be the same is patently ludicrous. Many professions operate under different types of discipline. That applies even to professions such as barristers and solicitors, which laymen might regard as the same. In my experience, teachers and youth workers work under a different structure of accountability and discipline, but that does not stop them working effectively together.
Perhaps closer and more germane to the issue is what happens when customs and police work together. Obviously, we want them to work together effectively and obviously we want a system that will deal with complaints. At some point, we may come to the question of accountability and complaints in relation to the customs. The House should consider that matter, because the situation is not perfect.
The Security Service has a problem with regard to transparency and accountability in its ordinary work. That is what the tribunal is about. It is not perfect, but it is a means of trying to address complaints. That becomes all the more important when, as a result of the Bill, the Security Service is drawn into joint working with the police and other law enforcement agencies.
The Minister has acknowledged, as we have in Committee and again today, that there is a problem that needs to be addressed. I do not think that there is an instant solution. I hope that in concluding the debate the Minister will agree that this important issue should be kept under scrutiny and that we should seek the best possible way to deal with it.
Mr. Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills):
Surely the difficulty for people such as me is that, by introducing the Security Service into what are traditionally criminal matters, you are importing into our system of policing the apparatus and special legal arrangements, which are
Mr. Michael:
I am sure that neither you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, nor I are importing this into legislation. It is the Government who seek to do so.
My hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman) said earlier that matters such as trafficking in weapons and the impact of that on his constituency and other parts of Scotland cannot be divided into crime on the one hand and terrorism on the other. We all want such things to be tackled, because they cause problems in our society.
The hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills(Mr. Shepherd) might learn something from reading our debates in Committee, because we were trying then, as now, to tease out the precise definitions that could be put in legislation and Ministers' precise understandings so that both the intention of Parliament and the legislation were clear. That is what we have been endeavouring to achieve during the past few weeks.
These complaints are being made over-complex. Such a complexity currently exists because the Security Service is beginning to assist the police service. I am concerned that unsolved business may exist. In the future, this must be examined in the light of practice and experience. It should not be dismissed--it is a serious matter--but it should not delay the legislation. If the Minister agrees with us on the area of concern to which we should apply our minds in the future, the intention of Parliament will be clear.
Mr. Maclean:
I agree with the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael). In the past hour, hon. Members have agonised over hypothetical cases--which we expect to be few and far between--where, for some reason, the Security Service will be involved in a joint operation, will be behind the front line of intelligence gathering and analysis, and will come in contact with a member of the public, and then there is a complaint.
As the hon. Gentleman said, we are currently in that scenario because of the help that the Security Service is giving the Metropolitan police in leading the fight against terrorism in Britain. At the present time, it is possible that members of the public will come up against a member of the Security Service when they think that they are dealing with a police complaint. Those twin tracks exist at the moment. I know that hon. Members would like the Security Service Tribunal machinery to be different, but that is the way it is, and that is what was agreed by the House. There are no plans to change that, nor should we change it just because we are now dealing with organised crime.
I am sorry that the hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman) was not a member of the Committee. I am certain that, if he had been a member, every matter relating to Scotland would have been raised, and we could have discussed his honourable career as a red cap. There is no equivalent to the Police Complaints Authority in Scotland--there is different machinery--but the initiating stages are the same: an individual makes a complaint to the local police force and it is the duty of the
chief constable to investigate it. That will apply equally in Scotland and in England. We shall ensure that the leaflets have valid currency in Scotland. I shall draw the Security Service's attention to the points that the hon. Gentleman made, but I see no reason for them to be any different to take account of Scotland.
I am not sure whether my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay (Mr. Allason) was correct. The tribunal's remit extends to any inquiries by the Security Service that have been initiated since November 1989--when the tribunal came into being--and any inquiries that were initiated before November 1989 where no decision had been taken to discontinue them in the intervening period. Any investigation by the service that ceased before the tribunal came into being is outside the tribunal's remit--although, in exceptional circumstances, it can pass a complaint to the commissioner. So that I do not delay the proceedings, I shall write a detailed letter to my hon. Friends and place it in the Library.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris):
Order. The hon. Gentleman cannot make a second contribution. On Report, only the mover of an amendment or a new clause and the Minister responsible may speak twice. All other hon. Members must collect their thoughts and make only one contribution.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:--
The House divided: Ayes 31, Noes 267.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly negatived.
Mr. Straw:
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
I do not doubt that the new clause is technically defective. In any event, we tabled it not to secure a vote, but as a vehicle for debate. It raises the issue of the accountability of the Security Service to the Intelligence and Security Committee and then to the House. In the debate on new clause 1, there was discussion about whether the Bill ought to proceed, given the appalling outrage committed by the IRA when it let off its terrorist bomb last Friday. On that issue, I agree entirely with my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth
(Mr. Michael) and the Minister of State: it would be wholly wrong for us to suspend the passage of the Bill as a response to that terrorist outrage.
AYES
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)
Beith, Rt Hon A J
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Campbell-Savours, D N
Canavan, Dennis
Chidgey, David
Corbyn, Jeremy
Dafis, Cynog
Godman, Dr Norman A
Harvey, Nick
Hinchliffe, David
Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Mon)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Kennedy, Charles (Ross,C&S)
Loyden, Eddie
Lynne, Ms Liz
McCartney, Robert
Maclennan, Robert
Maddock, Diana
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute)
Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)
Rendel, David
Simpson, Alan
Skinner, Dennis
Steel, Rt Hon Sir David
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Tyler, Paul
Wallace, James
Welsh, Andrew
Wigley, Dafydd
Winnick, David
Mr. Alex Carlile and
Mr. Archy Kirkwood.
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)
Alexander, Richard
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)
Amess, David
Ancram, Rt Hon Michael
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)
Ashby, David
Atkins, Rt Hon Robert
Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset)
Baldry, Tony
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Banks, Robert (Harrogate)
Bates, Michael
Beggs, Roy
Bellingham, Henry
Beresford, Sir Paul
Biffen, Rt Hon John
Body, Sir Richard
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Booth, Hartley
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bowden, Sir Andrew
Bowis, John
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Sir Graham
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Brown, M (Brigg & Cl'thorpes)
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Ian (South Dorset)
Butcher, John
Butler, Peter
Butterfill, John
Carlisle, John (Luton North)
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln)
Carrington, Matthew
Carttiss, Michael
Cash, William
Channon, Rt Hon Paul
Chapman, Sir Sydney
Clappison, James
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ru'clif)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coe, Sebastian
Congdon, David
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Couchman, James
Cran, James
Davies, Quentin (Stamford)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Day, Stephen
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Dicks, Terry
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Duncan, Alan
Duncan-Smith, Iain
Dunn, Bob
Durant, Sir Anthony
Dykes, Hugh
Eggar, Rt Hon Tim
Elletson, Harold
Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Evennett, David
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Fishburn, Dudley
Forsyth, Rt Hon Michael (Stirling)
Forsythe, Clifford (S Antrim)
Forth, Eric
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Fox, Rt Hon Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
French, Douglas
Fry, Sir Peter
Gale, Roger
Gallie, Phil
Gardiner, Sir George
Garnier, Edward
Gill, Christopher
Gillan, Cheryl
Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Grant, Sir A (SW Cambs)
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn
Hague, Rt Hon William
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Hampson, Dr Keith
Hanley, Rt Hon Jeremy
Hannam, Sir John
Hargreaves, Andrew
Harris, David
Haselhurst, Sir Alan
Hawkins, Nick
Hawksley, Warren
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David
Hendry, Charles
Hicks, Robert
Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence
Hill, James (Southampton Test)
Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)
Horam, John
Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)
Hunter, Andrew
Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas
Jack, Michael
Jenkin, Bernard
Jessel, Toby
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Jones, Robert B (W Hertfdshr)
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael
Key, Robert
King, Rt Hon Tom
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knapman, Roger
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Rt Hon Greg (Derby N)
Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)
Knox, Sir David
Kynoch, George (Kincardine)
Lang, Rt Hon Ian
Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Legg, Barry
Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark
Lester, Sir James (Broxtowe)
Lidington, David
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Lord, Michael
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
MacGregor, Rt Hon John
MacKay, Andrew
Maclean, Rt Hon David
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick
Madel, Sir David
Maitland, Lady Olga
Malone, Gerald
Mans, Keith
Marland, Paul
Marlow, Tony
Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian
Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick
Merchant, Piers
Mills, Iain
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Molyneaux, Rt Hon Sir James
Monro, Rt Hon Sir Hector
Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Needham, Rt Hon Richard
Nelson, Anthony
Neubert, Sir Michael
Nicholls, Patrick
Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Norris, Steve
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Patnick, Sir Irvine
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Pawsey, James
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Pickles, Eric
Porter, Barry (Wirral S)
Porter, David (Waveney)
Portillo, Rt Hon Michael
Powell, William (Corby)
Rathbone, Tim
Redwood, Rt Hon John
Renton, Rt Hon Tim
Riddick, Graham
Robathan, Andrew
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)
Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)
Sainsbury, Rt Hon Sir Timothy
Scott, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian
Shepherd, Sir Colin (Hereford)
Shersby, Sir Michael
Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Smyth, The Reverend Martin
Spencer, Sir Derek
Spicer, Sir James (W Dorset)
Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)
Spink, Dr Robert
Spring, Richard
Sproat, Iain
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Steen, Anthony
Stern, Michael
Stewart, Allan
Streeter, Gary
Sumberg, David
Sweeney, Walter
Sykes, John
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Rt Hon John D (Strgfd)
Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Thornton, Sir Malcolm
Thurnham, Peter
Townend, John (Bridlington)
Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)
Tracey, Richard
Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael
Trotter, Neville
Twinn, Dr Ian
Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Waldegrave, Rt Hon William
Walden, George
Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Waller, Gary
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel
Watts, John
Wells, Bowen
Whitney, Ray
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Ann
Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld)
Wolfson, Mark
Wood, Timothy
Yeo, Tim
Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Mr. Derek Conway and
Mr. Patrick McLoughlin.
'.At the end of section 10 of the Intelligence Services Act 1994 (The Intelligence and Security Committee) there shall be added--
"(8) The power of the Prime Minister referred to in subsection (7) above shall not apply to any matter in the report of the Committee that relates directly to the function of the Security Service as established in section 1(4) of the Security Service Act 1989.".'.--[Mr. Straw.]
Brought up, and read the First time.
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