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Mr. Andrew Hargreaves (Birmingham, Hall Green): I counsel my hon. Friend that, if such a thing were covered--as I shall argue if I am lucky enough to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker--I would oppose the Bill.
Mr. Hawksley: That needs discussion at length.
The second relevant case--all these are recent cases--also involved a murder. The Guardian of 28 September 1995 reported that a man who firebombed a noisy reggae party was gaoled for life and stated:
I hope that those two examples and the fact that there have been 20 deaths as a result of agitation caused by noise since 1992 will convince the House that it is essential that action should be taken.
Lady Olga Maitland (Sutton and Cheam):
Does my hon. Friend agree that, with such noises and the aggravation and irritation that they cause, it is night-time noise that is the greatest curse? People suffer the most tremendous depressions because they cannot get a decent night's sleep. That is why the Bill is so important.
Mr. Hawksley:
I agree, but as the hon. Member for Tooting said, there are people who work at night and need to rest during the day. Some people put their children to bed early, and noise can cause considerable problems for families trying get a decent night's sleep for their children.
Councils respond to the present situation in different ways. Some have full-time officers, and some do nothing. Dudley council takes the middle road. It does not have full-time officers, but it has two officers who try to mediate initially and record the facts. They operate
between 7 pm and 3 am each night. They do not deal with the complaints that arise that night. If somebody rings the police, the council will be called, but those officers are responding to previous complaints. They try to check whether a continuous noise is being made. The council's environmental department sifts through the information on its cases to decide which are appropriate for the two officers to visit. The council would claim--councils claiming that will be one of the Bill's problems--that local authorities do not have sufficient resources to carry out present legislation.
Mr. Couchman:
My hon. Friend makes a good point. This is a worthy Bill, and unlike my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. Hargreaves)I shall certainly not oppose it. Does my hon. Friend agree that its success will depend on the energy and enthusiasm that local authorities put into its enforcement?
Mr. Hawksley:
Yes, it will. It is important that local authorities take it up and do not say that they have not the resources to handle it. That is a fear, because the problem of resources is not the only one affecting council officers, who assure me that they often need police officers to accompany them. Violence and public order offences may be committed, and they do not feel that, even with the powers that the Bill would give them, they should carry out their investigations without a police officer present. Police officers have many duties and tackling noise is probably not top of their list. We all understand that. Other offences are being committed that they must tackle.
Although my officers in Dudley carry out mediation and attempt to reach peaceful settlements, the success rate is low. We have heard that there were 131,000 cases in 1994, which is only the tip of the iceberg. The average over the past 10 years has been 1,000 cases a year in which mediation has worked. That is a small number.
The elderly and the ill in particular come with great concerns to see their constituency Members of Parliament. Most of my recent cases involve people who live in flats, which suffer problems more than do houses because noises come through more strongly. Often, the complaints are against people such as a single lady with a child. When she arrives, there is no problem, but soon an unofficial lodger moves in. Many of my constituents suggest that drugs are involved and claim that crime is committed from such establishments.
Mr. Robert Banks:
My hon. Friend mentioned mediation, which is a relatively new concept. The two oldest mediation services are at Bristol and Southwark and go back to 1985 and 1987. Does he agree that, if mediation is brought in early, it can save a great deal of bureaucracy and cost that would otherwise be incurred by the local authority and the police services sending their representatives to deal with the problem?
Mr. Hawksley:
I entirely agree. If mediation can be used successfully, it has great advantages for costs and for neighbourly good will. It is important that everything should be done to try to bring about a peaceful agreement. Sometimes, the parties will say, "Yes, we are sorry: we did not realise it was quite so loud," but that is in a minority of cases.
Invariably, I find that constituents first complain to the police, who come round, look into the matter and talk to the people who are making the noise. Although they have
no power to act at that stage, they will normally turn down the offending musical instrument for a short period, but the volume will go back up. The police do not have the time or resources to keep responding to such noises.We must remember that. The police are involved in other things and council officers are prepared to investigate cases only when they have a police officer with them.
My hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate was right to mention the bureaucracy, which involves policemen making arrests and people making complaints. I well remember the former chief superintendent at Brierley Hill, Dudley. He was worried when he went to his police station at about 4 am. He found all 12 police cars, which should have been out on patrol, parked in the police station courtyard. He was concerned and wondered whether they were having a party that he had not been told about, as his visit was an unexpected check on what they were up to. It was not a party. Each officer was dealing with one problem and was tied up for about three hours with the bureaucracy that went with it.
Obviously, the police do not want to get involved with the bureaucracy that goes with this Bill. They do not have the resources, and cannot afford, to do so. A fixed penalty is desirable, as it could help to reduce the amount of police bureaucracy necessary when a public order offence is committed and may save some time, although we must carefully consider the £40 figure.
We must accept that, even under the Bill, council officers will need to be accompanied by police officers on most occasions. On many occasions, particularly in the early hours of the morning, they are fearful of investigating such matters on their own. Officers working for my council have certainly said that they are not prepared to work without the close co-operation and support of the police. Their work is dependent on the police being available to help them.
My main concern is whether the Bill goes far enough and is the complete answer. I am far from convinced that it is. I am concerned about particular proposals, although I will certainly support the Bill today.
Miss Kate Hoey (Vauxhall):
I share some of the views that the hon. Gentleman has expressed about the Bill not going far enough. I have not read it in detail, but does he agree that the great disruption and noise pollution caused on densely populated estates late at night by people sitting around in large cars with loud music blaring, particularly in the summer, does not seem to be covered? I hope that the Bill will go into Committee, and I hope that that matter will be considered there.
Mr. Hawksley:
,,oni I accept that point. I asked what would happen if a garden were involved. I understand why, when my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North proposed the Bill, he said that it was intended for households. Other legislation covers the matter that the hon. Lady mentioned--that is a public order offence, which is in police hands. I am not sure whether such cases could be brought within the scope of the Bill.
"A British Telecom engineer who firebombed a party in the flat of noisy neighbours, causing the death of a 26-year-old mother, was yesterday jailed for life for murder with a recommendation that he serves at least 22 years . . . The Old Bailey heard that he snapped last July having endured prolonged excessive noise from neighbours."
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