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Mr. John Carlisle (Luton, North): Does my hon. Friend agree that the chairman of Railtrack, too, is what is colloquially known as a bit of railway buff, and will therefore support the Bill containing the measures outlined by my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome?
Mr. Watts: Yes, I am sure that my hon. Friend is right. Indeed, I would expect many railway companies moving into the private sector still to want to make records and artefacts available to collecting institutions at nominal cost, as the nationalised railway has done. They will do that to show their support and good faith, and their commitment to both the future and the past of the railway.
Mr. Wilson: On the subject of good faith, if the owners or inheritors of the artefacts set a price upon them, will
the purchasing body be given any financial support,as there is likely to be a different level of commercial transaction involved than at present?
Mr. Watts: I am not sure whether the private sector owners will necessarily want to get full the commercial value for the items that they seek to dispose of, but I shall refer to the way in which we propose to use the Secretary of State's power of guidance to indicate the values that we would expect to be set.
My hon. Friend has said that the Bill provides for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to issue guidance to the committee, and I should perhaps explain why that power is necessary and how it would be exercised. It is essential that private sector owners of designated records and artefacts be compensated at market value if the committee directs disposal of those items. But the British Railways Board is happy to continue to transfer records and artefacts to the national railway museum, the Public Record Office, the Scottish Record Office and other collecting institutions, either free or for a nominal charge.
Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire):
Will my hon. Friend ensure that the Royal Commission on historical manuscripts--of which I am a member--is consulted on the disposal of all archives? Will he also recommended that, where possible, artefacts should be transferred to the science museum's department at York, a marvellous and incomparable railway museum?
Mr. Watts:
Indeed. Most of these records have in the past been passed to the railway museum in York, and we intend that that should continue. I shall look further into the point that my hon. Friend makes about the royal commission.
It would not be right to obstruct such a mutually beneficial arrangement between the British Railways Board and the collecting institutions, and it would be wrong for us to make one provision in the Bill for the public sector and another for the private sector, as I am advised that that might hybridise the Bill. I am also responsible for the Channel Tunnel Rail Link Bill, and I think that one hybrid Bill at a time is quite enough. The guidance would deal with that problem.
The market value compensation for private sector bodies would be arrived at through agreement between the owner and the collecting institution. Clearly they will not always agree, and the guidance will therefore need to make provision for disputes. We envisage recourse to arbitration under those circumstances. If the parties failed to agree on an arbiter, the president of the Institute of Arbiters would be asked to choose one. The guidance would cover those matters. In addition, the guidance will assist the committee in drafting directions.
I understand that there may be some concern that giving the Secretary of State the power to provide guidance to the committee would undermine its independence. I must stress that it is not our intention to dictate to the committee which artefacts and records should be preserved. Even if the Secretary of State were to give such guidance, the committee would merely be obliged to have regard to it, not to follow it.
A summary of the matters to be covered in the guidance is set out in more detail in the notes on clauses for this Bill, copies of which are available from the Vote Office
and have been placed in the Library. I am aware of the public interest in the actual contents of the guidance and I can confirm that, when it has been fully worked up,it will be published and copies placed in the Library.
Railway heritage may be primarily concerned with the past but, as I said earlier, it is highly relevant to the future. I am confident that privatisation will bring considerable improvements in the running of the railway, and innovations that will be of interest to future generations. I am therefore very keen to ensure that the records of such an exciting period in railway history and the innovations that will be encouraged by the introduction of private sector disciplines will be preserved for the nation.
I warmly encourage my hon. Friend to visit the national railway museum and to deposit a copy of his Bill there. I am sure that he would be welcomed there and would enjoy his visit. The Bill is supported on both sides of House and is clearly very much in the public interest. I commend it whole-heartedly to the House, and invite the House to give it a Second Reading.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee, pursuant to Standing OrderNo. 61 (Committal of Bills).
Order for Second Reading read.
Mr. Bernard Jenkin (Colchester, North):
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. There is a rumour circulating the Palace of Westminster that a device has been found under the car of an hon. Member. I hasten to add that it is rumour, and that the device was not found within the precincts of the Palace of Westminster. Will you use your good offices and those of Madam Speaker to circulate warnings to hon. Members so that we can all be on the alert this weekend?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes):
I should have thought hon. Members would be aware of the position already.
Mr. Peter Atkinson (Hexham):
Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Will you use your offices to encourage Madam Speaker to ask the Leader of the House to come to the Chamber today to make a statement about what he proposes to do to increase security in the Palace of Westminster? In view of what my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester, North (Mr. Jenkin) has just said, it seems that hon. Members should know, as a matter of urgency, that they are being properly protected.
Madam Deputy Speaker:
I have noted what the hon. Gentleman has said.
Mr. John Carlisle (Luton North):
Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Madam Deputy Speaker:
I have already dealt with the point of order. The hon. Gentleman must sit down.
Mr. Simon Hughes (Southwark and Bermondsey):
I beg to move, That the Bill be read a Second time now, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Mr. John Carlisle:
On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
Madam Deputy Speaker:
Is this a different point of order?
Mr. Carlisle:
Yes, it is on a different subject. I am a little concerned that the business that is to follow the business that we have been discussing, and which we have just accepted, is the result of a ten-minute Bill. Other hon. Members have Bills that came up in the ballot for private Member's Bills. A ten-minute Bill appears to have almost jumped the queue--perhaps you, Madam Deputy Speaker, could give me some guidance on that.
Madam Deputy Speaker:
Yes, I can give the hon. Gentleman some guidance straight away. It is a bogus point of order, of which I take a dim view. I now put the Question on the tobacco promotion Bill.
To be read a Second time on Friday 22 March.
Order for Second Reading read.
Mr. Simon Hughes:
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I shall deal with the previous Bill first.I moved it "now"--I hope that that was on the record.I understand that it was not able to be taken--
Mr. John Carlisle:
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Madam Deputy Speaker:
I am not taking any points of order from the hon. Gentleman now.
Mr. Simon Hughes:
I moved my Bill "now".I understand that an objection was taken to that, so I have now named a date for the Bill to be taken again. I believe that there cannot be any objection to that.
Madam Deputy Speaker:
That is correct.
Mr. Carlisle:
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Madam Deputy Speaker:
Order. I have already ruled on this. I am not taking another point of order on that issue.
Mr. Simon Hughes:
On the second Bill, which has just been called by the learned Clerk, with the leave of the Member whose Bill it is, I wish to move the Bill now.
To be read a Second time on Friday 1 March.
2.29 pm
Order for Second Reading read.
Read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee, pursuant to Standing Order No. 61 (Committal of Bills).
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