| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Maginnis: I hear what the hon. Member for North Antrim says. The policemen whom I know have never been afraid to put themselves between the terrorists--and all the machinations of the terrorists--and the good of society. It should be left to the discretion of our police service. I know that the greater number of police would wish for the ability to glean high-grade intelligence rather than seek their own security. The argument exists, which is why we are having this debate today and why it has taken the Government so long to capitulate on the question of video recordings.
This issue relates to the long-term good of society. Today we have seen our very efficient police service virtually neutered in the collection and collation of intelligence, because this is not a nice thing to do. Well, what the terrorists have done to society for the past25 years is not very nice; and what they have done over the past few weeks is not very nice.
Gerry Adams is telling us that he is "holding out his hand to John Major" and that he would like to be friendly. However, at the same time, he is telling us that he will not condemn the acts of terrorism that have occurred, and he is asking gullible people not to deliver the terrorists to the due process of law. With that sort of influence pervading part of our society, why on earth should we put restrictions on ourselves in relation to the video recording amendment?
Rev. William McCrea (Mid-Ulster):
We are dealing with a serious matter. We are considering the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Bill at a time when the IRA has resumed its onslaught on the mainland. We have had a continuing threat to the people of Northern Ireland--the members of the security forces, the elected Members of this House and society in general. As was suggested in Committee, it would be folly to dismantle this legislation--it ought not to have been considered--when there is such a terrorist threat to the whole of the United Kingdom. I believe that we have been proved right: the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland need the legislation that we are debating at the moment.
The solemn responsibility of Her Majesty's Government--indeed, their primary duty--is to defend the citizens of the United Kingdom. This legislation is not a threat to innocent, decent and law-abiding citizens. However, in the circumstances in which we find ourselves, we ought to have legislation that is a threat to those who endeavour to make our community a slaughterhouse--as we have seen in recent days on the mainland.
On behalf of my colleagues, I express our sympathy to the innocent people who have lost their lives since the renewal of the IRA's campaign of murder and destruction. We should also think of those who are in hospital because, while they may still be alive, they will carry the scars of these dastardly deeds upon their bodies for the rest of their days. We should not forget the families of those who are left with the scars--no one but those who have been through such an ordeal will understand how they feel.
We are not dealing with mindless villains; we are dealing with cold-blooded terrorists. We are in an emergency situation--this is emergency legislation.I think that every hon. Member would have been delighted if the Minister had been able to say with hand on heart that the United Kingdom and every part of it is at peace--that there is no more war, slaughter, threat or danger to the citizens of the United Kingdom. Unfortunately and sadly, that is not reality.
The amendment relates to video recording. I understand some of the points that were raised by the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maginnis). However, it is important that we do nothing that will damage gaining the high-grade intelligence that has been mentioned, because it is vital. It is essential that the best intelligence is gathered against this organisation, which is inflicting a reign of terror on our people.
The Government have considered a number of views over the years that the legislation has been on the statute book. The Government believe that now is the time to step forward regarding video recording. My colleagues and I do not want to put any impediment in the path of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the security forces in bringing to justice those who have carried out these dastardly crimes, because they deserve to face justice and prison. In fact, I believe that those who are guilty of murder deserve more--I believe in capital punishment, and I believe that they deserve death. However, we are not debating that issue at the moment, so my comments must be restricted to the amendment.
Having listened to the matters that were debated in Committee and having listened to the debate today, we feel that it is necessary to protect the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the members of the security forces against false charges. Unfortunately, it is not easy to gain high-level intelligence if impediments are put in the path of the security forces. However, knowing the border area as the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone does, it hurts the community whenever known criminals and murderers are taken to court and they get off on a technicality. It grieves the loved ones and the families of those who have been bereaved. Therefore, it is important that we do not give an inch. We must provide the necessary means so that terrorists cannot get out of court, continue their dastardly deeds and terrorise the community.
Mr. Maginnis:
Is not the hon. Member exaggerating? Let us consider the number of people who have been involved in terrorism, the number who have been questioned and the number who have been involved in the questioning. Say a terrorist injures himself and a policeman takes the steps open to him immediately. One does not split one's head open unless one is hit. If one hits someone hard enough to open his head, more often than not one injures oneself. There are ways around that, without placing constraints on the police, which will inhibit the collection of high-grade intelligence. I would rather one guilty man walked away from court every now and again than the police being perpetually inhibited in the collection of information and intelligence.
Rev. William McCrea:
Surely the hon. Gentleman has to be very careful in going down that road. Why should we allow one guilty terrorist to walk out of court? What if that terrorist happened to murder the hon. Gentleman's loved ones after he walked out? How would he regard the fact that he had been able to get out? The measure is a protection for members of the security forces. We should not give terrorists any corner to crawl out of any judgment. If they are guilty, they should be found guilty. They should not be able to grasp at some straw and claim that they were unjustly treated in police custody.
Rev. Ian Paisley:
I am sure my hon. Friend has heard what has been said. The hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maginnis) said that, if the person doing the interrogating attacked and injured the suspect, evidence could be found on the attacker. Surely, the man carrying out the interview could throw the prisoner against the wall and split his head. How does the hon. Gentleman answer that accusation? I do not know where he has been living, but I have been studying the court cases. Such charges are trotted out in nearly every case that comes to court. It is said that the Royal Ulster Constabulary is at it again--beating people up in Castlereagh.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes):
Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but interventions should by their nature be short. He should contribute later rather than lengthen his intervention now.
Rev. Ian Paisley:
I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker. I got carried away.
Rev. William McCrea:
I would rather my hon. Friend got carried away than the terrorist got carried away in his act of terrorism. Unfortunately, a great tragedy is happening in the United Kingdom. Terrorists are killing our people. We are talking about serious matters. In my
Mr. Mallon:
I thank the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maginnis), first, for giving way to me and, secondly, for the clarity of his exposition of what may or may not happen in interrogation centres. As I listened to the stories about people taking off their clothes, banging their heads against the wall and cameras coming down from the ceiling, I thought of a remarkable short story by Franz Kafka, called "The Trial", and I began to wonder whether we had got to the stage of surreality and literally lost sight of the new clause.
The new clause is simple. There is one difficulty about it--it is couched in terms of a code of practice. I am not in total ignorance of this type of legislation. Of course, I am not so learned and experienced as the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone in these matters. I do not have his sources of intelligence or information, thanks be to heaven, but I have certain experiences. I have lived 60 years of my life in south Armagh and I am not altogether naive about what happens.
When I see the term codes of practice in relation to any emergency legislation, I say to myself, "That is the long finger"--the euphemism for never doing something or for doing it so much later that the needs and requirements may well have overtaken it long ago. How often I have stood here, in debate after debate on new clauses about the making of codes of practice? How often, in Committee, both on the emergency provisions Acts and on the prevention of terrorism Acts, I have seen new clauses of this kind. In reality, making a code of practice is a euphemism for never doing anything.
That is the reality and the surreality of the type of debate that we are having. We must add to that the situation that we are in, both politically and in terms of everyone's safety. We are talking about people throwing off their clothes and hitting their heads against a wall with a camera either above or below them. That puts the new clause into some perspective.
I have spoken in Committee in favour of audio and video recording not once but five times, I believe, for very simple reasons--not least the reason given by the hon. Member for North Antrim (Rev. Ian Paisley). When one considers the hundreds of thousands of pounds that have been paid out in claims for injuries alleged to have occurred in interrogation centres, it would make good sense in financial terms alone to ensure that there is a record against which allegations can be judged.
One has also to consider the percentage of allegations settled out of court and not even tested in court. I am talking not about small amounts of money, but about hundreds of thousands of pounds. I do not know the exact figure. So far as I can remember, I believe that we are talking about well over £1 million, £2 million or perhaps even more. That is a substantial amount of money. However, that is not the main point.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |