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Mr. Mallon: I will show the hon. Member the same courtesy as he showed me.
Mr. Maginnis: The hon. Gentleman has to some extent revealed his hand. He talked about the officer who has behaved improperly, but at the same time poured scorn on the idea that a person being questioned might strip off his clothes--that he might have repeatedly resorted to that tactic--and lie down on the floor or seek to injure himself against the wall of the room in which he is being questioned. The hon. Gentleman cannot have it both ways. He cannot get away with the implication that the police behave improperly while terrorists, who are involved in the most ghastly crimes, behave properly.
Mr. Mallon: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I do not want to have it both ways. If we had audio and video recordings and someone stripped off his or her clothes, took a mad dash at the wall, hit his or her head against it and fell to the floor, that would be on record and could not be used to make a false allegation. Similarly, if an interrogating officer did not work according to proper procedures, that would also be on record. In my view, that would protect both the person being interrogated and the interrogator.
I am not making a case, as the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone implied, against those who carry out the interrogations. However, a decision of the European Court of Human Rights stated that such incidents occurred and Lord Bennett's report, which was commissioned by the House, clearly stated that that happened. Have we or have we not a duty to protect both the interrogating officer and the person being interrogated, and to add to the evidence and material that can be brought to court? I believe that we have.
The greater the security problems that we face--such as the horrendous attacks that have occurred in recent days because of the political uncertainty--the more we must seek to retain the integrity of the process of law and public confidence in justice. New clause 5 is one way to do that.
Mr. Roger Stott (Wigan):
In the light of the speech made by the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maginnis), who seemed to be very worried about the existence of the videos and what might flow from them, perhaps my hon. Friend the Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) can reassure me. As I understand it, video recordings of suspects' interrogations would be treated like any other information that is gathered by the Royal Ulster Constabulary and they would be secure.
The hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone seems to think that the videos would be shown at the local cinema or on the Bravo channel of Sky television. Who else would have access to videos made in Castlereagh apart from the RUC? I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Newry and Armagh and also--I suspect for the first time ever--with the hon. Member for
North Antrim (Rev. Ian Paisley) that this is a very sensible provision. I am sure that the video recordings will not be readily available to the general public.
Mr. Mallon:
My hon. Friend gives me the onerous task of attempting to define the position taken by the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone. I will give the hon. Gentleman a further opportunity to clarify his position if he would like to do so.
Mr. Maginnis:
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. Perhaps he is slightly embarrassed, as all hon. Members should be embarrassed, by the glibness of the hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. Stott) in referring to the Bravo channel. His experience of Northern Ireland should have led him to understand how lawyers for accused persons have the right of access to available information. I assume that that is at least a possibility. If it is not a possibility, I am sure that the Minister will greatly reassure me by telling me that that information will never be available to lawyers in court and will therefore not enter the public domain in that way. The carelessness and glibness of the hon. Member for Wigan is out of place when one considers the extent to which terrorism pervades our society.
Mr. Mallon:
I shall simply say that I hope that the position has been clarified for my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Mr. Stott). When he makes that assessment, perhaps he will clarify it for me and for the rest of the House. I have no doubt that the Minister will give the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone every assurance that he seeks because we are talking about a code of practice and it probably will never become a reality. There is almost a bounden duty to give such reassurances, and I have no doubt that the Minister will fall into line. I shall be awaiting those assurances with great interest. I see that the Minister is nodding already.
The hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone is right about one thing: we are in a very difficult, dangerous and tense period. There is no question or doubt about that. No one can underestimate the difficulties that we all face. However, we must all hang on to one thing: the integrity of the law, not only in its enforcement but in its ability to defend the individual. Ultimately, that is the only barrier between the type of anarchy that the terrorist groups want to create and the type of society that we wish to create. That is the acid test, and we should never forget it in this debate.
This debate is very difficult from my perspective; it is not easy and it will not be easy. There will be gloating. There will be those who tell us, almost with a great sense of self-justification, "Didn't we tell you so?" What did they tell us--that it is wrong to try to work for peace? Is anyone telling me that it is wrong to try to work for a system of justice that will protect society and the individual? It is not as if the new clause is remarkably radical--the hon. Member for North Antrim and I agree about some of it--but it goes to the core of the entire debate, and it concerns more than the video recording of interrogations or the audio recording of investigations. It deals with the key question: how do an informed Government deal with terrorism and at the same time protect the highest standards of law? That is what the whole debate is about, and not the peripheral matters that we have been discussing.
In conclusion, it is seldom that the hon. Member for North Antrim gets carried away, but by coincidence I was watching a video recently and I saw him being carried away quite literally and not just metaphorically.
Mr. Robert McCartney (North Down):
I shall endeavour to be mercifully brief.
The debate is essentially about two issues. First, how far are people to be protected, in a democratic society, by the laws that are necessary in an emergency? Secondly, in those circumstances, how far are the rights of the individual to be catered for? There is no doubt that if the protection, as a Government may regard it, of society at all costs is to be the only criterion, one could easily end up in a police state. On the other hand, if the protection of individual rights is to be ensured, regardless of the needs of society as a whole, we end up with anarchy. In a democratic society, the Government must strive, in dealing with an emergency such as that which we face, to achieve what Horace described as the golden mean--the balance between the competing interests. The use of video is an attempt by the Government to find, in microcosm, a balance.
The ordinary rules of law for the protection of an individual in this society have been created to cater for normal circumstances: the right to silence, the right to have representation, the right to have a case heard properly and the right to be assisted by a legal representative when one may, through ignorance or inexperience, be unable to protect one's own rights. They were all created in circumstances in which many of the accused were illiterate or overwhelmed by the dignity, and sometimes the pomposity, of the legal process. They were frightened and needed to be protected. That is one end of the balance.
The other end of the balance is frequently seen in Northern Ireland. We are faced with an organised, highly intelligent, well-trained, violent and criminal conspiracy. The people involved are not bumpkins who do not know what is going on. They have been briefed in the latest anti-interrogation techniques, some of which my hon. Friend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone(Mr. Maginnis) has mentioned. There are well-established techniques for frustrating interrogations and inquiries which would be straightforward in a normal society. In such circumstances, the normal rules for an ordinary society have to be modified in some degree if society is to be protected.
At the same time, emergency legislation and abnormal circumstances provide opportunities for various sorts of malpractice by over-zealous police officers and by people who are privy to information, which although it is not evidence acceptable in court nevertheless shows in the strongest possible terms that the people being interrogated are guilty of the most hideous crimes. Eye witnesses may have made statements that the person being interrogated is the perpetrator of a murder but have also said that in no circumstances will they give such evidence in court because of the need to protect not only their lives but those of their families and children.
Such circumstances offer to an over-zealous police officer an enormous temptation to secure an admission or confession. However, a well-trained police officer knows that if he oversteps the bounds, he defeats the object that he seeks. It is for that reason that I endorse the midway
point--the balanced judgment--of the Government in this particular case. They suggest that there should be a silent video recording. That would undoubtedly provide evidence that there had been no overwhelming, oppressive behaviour and no resorting, if not to physical violence, to degrading conduct or behaviour towards the accused. That is a balance in favour of the accused.
At the same time, I oppose the suggestion that such video recordings should be accompanied by audio recordings of statements. From my experience, I believe that that would cause a diminution in the quality and range of the admissions, confessions or statements that are likely to be made by the accused.
We must face the real word. Many of the people who are picked up and interrogated by the police, and who agree to participate in a dialogue with them, are minor figures. However they can give evidence that may be helpful in tracing those who have been involved in shooting, murder or other serious crime.
5.45 pm
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