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6.15 pm
One thing must not happen in Castlereagh and similar places--the forces of law and order must not act as
recruiting sergeants for the Provisional IRA, the Ulster Defence Association, the Ulster Volunteer Force or similar organisations. I do not imply that any of those police officers have done that, but it has happened. I have often seen young people who definitely were not IRA--young people in west Belfast--who had been injured. One may call it ill-treatment or whatever one likes. Such measures are counter-productive.
The new clause is about protection for police officers and for those who are interviewed. Above all, it is intended to ensure that interrogation methods do not drive young people into the arms of the paramilitaries. God only knows that there are enough people in communities such as the Falls road and Shankill road in my constituency who will try to influence young people and drive them into the arms of the godfathers.
Proper video and audio recording would be the answer. It would protect the average policeman in Castlereagh and the person questioned.
Sir John Wheeler:
The debate has ping-ponged across the Chamber as hon. Members have exposed the Government's dilemma in their attempt to reach, as the hon. and learned Member for North Down(Mr. McCartney) said, the midway point--to do what is right in the interests of justice and in the interests of recognising the reality of the present position in Northern Ireland.
I am grateful to the hon. and learned Member for North Down for his intervention. The House would do well to listen to his wisdom and experience, and to that of the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone(Mr. Maginnis). I fully understand the hon. Gentleman's arguments and why he makes them, and I pay a warm tribute to his steadfast stance in support of the security forces in Northern Ireland. He was right to make the arguments he did, to reflect on the recent security developments, and to probe the provision. If I had believed that the Royal Ulster Constabulary would be damaged by what the Government propose tonight, I should not have moved the new clause; I give the hon. Gentleman that sincere assurance.
Introducing the debate, the hon. Member for Clydebank and Milngavie (Mr. Worthington) cited all the various vehicles that pray in aid an improvement in arrangements in the holding centres. Mr. Justice Kerr was once again exhibited for what he said in the case ofCrown v. McLoughlin, Beck and Garland on 3 March 1995. It may help the House if I give the whole ofMr. Justice Kerr's view:
But he went on to say:
That is the crux of the matter.
I entirely agree with Mr. Justice Kerr, as do other speakers in this debate, about the merit of the desirability of both video and audio recording. It is a question of
judgment, and of taking into account all the other factors. The hon. Member for Clydebank and Milngavie cited the Standing Advisory Commission on Human Rights, the learned John Rowe and the experience in England and Wales. All that is correct, but the balance that must be struck came out in debate--and the House should acknowledge the Government's dilemma in ensuring that justice is done, and that holding centres have the right facilities.
Against the arguments of the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone wasthe advice of the hon. Member for North Antrim(Rev. Ian Paisley), who said that such recordings would be a way of protecting the police. He was absolutely right. The hon. Gentleman went on to say that complaints are made about the way that the police conduct matters, and he was right about that. However, we boast in Northern Ireland the most stringent scrutiny of the Royal Ulster Constabulary through the independent complaints mechanism.
The Government recently announced a review of that mechanism, to test whether it is meeting our objective of bringing confidence into the way that the RUC works. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be reassured.
Mr. Mallon:
The Minister makes an important point about the police complaints procedure. In how many instances has a police officer been found guilty of a transgression? The House would be interested to have the Minister's guidance.
Sir John Wheeler:
Proceedings in Standing Committee were sustained by a natural quest for statistical information. Hon. Members who were privileged to serve on that Committee will know that I endeavoured on every conceivable occasion to give such information. Later, I will return to the hon. Gentleman's point, when I hope that the information I provide will assist him.
The questions of the hon. Member for Clydebank and Milngavie were echoed by the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon), who is concerned about the code of practice. The Government have established a joint working group with the Royal Ulster Constabulary, and work has begun on the code of practice, technical aspects and setting up the scheme.
As the hon. Member for Clydebank and Milngavie suggested, the siting of the camera or cameras and how or what they may record is a complicated issue, but I give him the assurance that a study will be made. The scheme would apply to all interviews in holding centres, and thus to all holding centres available for that exercise. It is not possible to say when the scheme will come into effect, because that will depend on how much work must be done on the technical aspects and on agreeing the code.
I acknowledge that, in the circumstances of the Murray case, there was a disparity between the operation of the Police and Criminal Evidence (Northern Ireland) Order 1989 and the European convention on human rights. The deferral of access to a solicitor is not itself in breach of the convention, and we are looking at what must be done to avoid such a disparity recurring. I know that the hon. Gentleman will welcome that assurance.
The hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone, in a wise and helpful speech, set out the case for not doing as the Government propose, but the police are in the
vanguard of the fight against terrorism. They have a variety of powers at their disposal under emergency legislation and ordinary criminal law. I have no reason to believe that the emergency legislation is not being fully used by the police to deal with the present violence.
The hon. Member for Newry and Armagh cynically pondered whether the code of practice would come into being, but I assure him that it will. My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State, who is in his place, will be under a duty to make a code of practice and an order that will introduce the silent video recording in the way that the House has discussed. I hope that that assurance will give the hon. Gentleman the comfort he seeks.
The hon. Gentleman asked about the number of compensation cases. One hundred and fifty-two cases resulted in payment in respect of persons in a holding centre. In only eight cases was unreasonable force one of the grounds on which payment was made--the remaining cases related to faulty procedure. The total payment was £34,600 in respect of unreasonable force, and the total payment in all other cases was just over £237,000.
Why not go to full audio recording? The case for it was made by the hon. Members for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) and for Belfast, West (Dr. Hendron). The Government, and the House this afternoon, must balance the genuine effort to protect the rights of interviewers and interviewees, and to increase the efficiency of the courts, against not rendering impossible the acquisition of information from interviews in holding centres.
The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North perhaps disparaged the collection of intelligence. On this evening of all evenings, in light of what has occurred in London during the past few days and last night, any intelligence acquired as a result of a holding centre interview that preserved the life of one citizen would have been well worth it. The Government have an absolute duty to balance the interests of the preservation of life, and the safety and security of the citizens of this country, against the conduct of the police and of interviews.
Mr. McNamara:
The Minister has made an outrageous statement. Nobody is denying the right of the police to interview people and to gain information from them, provided that it is done properly and within the law, a record is made of it, and that record is available to both sides. However, the Minister endorsed the right to go on fishing expeditions.
Sir John Wheeler:
I do not think that the hon. Gentleman and I are too far apart. I did not endorse the concept of fishing expeditions. My point about the work of the holding centres is that if, in the course of an interview, intelligence information is collected which prevents outrage, the House should rejoice. The hon.
"I feel constrained to say that the task of resolving the conflict would have been immeasurably easier, even at the prosaic level of reducing considerably the number of witnesses who require to be called, if audio equipment had been installed to record the exchanges at interview."
"I hasten to acknowledge that there may be strong practical arguments of which I am not fully aware and on which I am not in a position to make a sound judgment which militate against the introduction of audio equipment in a case such as this."
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