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Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North): Rachman should be living now.
Mr. Corbyn: It would be much easier for Rachman if he were alive today because he could simply write to the local authority and claim the money--he would not need to use dogs and the other horrific methods that he employed. The Government should be realistic about housing benefit. Perhaps they should consider re-regulating rents so that private sector rents do not continue to go through the roof. In most parts of London, £100 per week would hardly pay for a bedsit and people are paying more than £150 per week for a flat. That is one of the consequences of a housing benefit strategy designed to subsidise landlords whom Government policies have freed from any controls.
One could discuss many issues in the debate, but I shall conclude on one important point. Those of us who grew up secure in the knowledge that the welfare state provided guarantees against unemployment and sickness and guaranteed some degree of dignity in retirement are seeing those guarantees being taken away. Future generations will not thank us for allowing all the gains of post-war consensus to be sacrificed by the Government on the altar of a free market economy.
I believe in the principle of a state-run welfare system. Where the welfare state has operated elsewhere--for example, in Sweden, and in most other parts of western Europe--people enjoy greater security, higher living standards and higher levels of achievement. In this country the living standards of the poor are continually being reduced and too many of our children are under-achieving in under-funded schools because the Government believe that public spending is a dirty word.
Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley):
I am grateful that I have caught your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in this important debate about uprating the orders. I believe that those who receive Department of Social Security benefits are not spongers or wasters--the vast majority of recipients are in genuine need. Many people find that situation extremely stressful and would prefer to have a job rather than rely on benefit. However, I also believe that we should take fraud very seriously. It is corrosive and we should not turn a blind eye to it.
I enjoyed listening to the contribution from the jurassic hon. Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn). He is perhaps not new Labour, but he is certainly real Labour--so much so that the Labour spin doctor, the hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr. Mandelson), who was standing to one side, could not remain in the Chamber for a second longer. No doubt he has gone to cry into his avocado dip. The contribution from the hon. Member for Islington, North was vintage old Labour--it is the sort of politics that we could expect if the nightmare became reality and the Labour party formed the next Government.
The hon. Gentleman banged on time and again about the difference between those who have no money and those who have it. He and his party will never learn that one cannot make the poor rich by making the rich poor. It is the politics of envy and we hear it time and again whenever Labour Members open their mouths. The hon. Gentleman said that the Conservatives need a new enemy every year, but the Labour party sticks with its old enemy: those who happen to have some money. The Labour party cannot wait for an opportunity to take that money away.
Mr. Jenkin:
I agree with a great deal of what my hon. Friend has said about the speech by the hon. Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn). Did my hon. Friend notice that, at one or two points during the hon. Gentleman's speech, the hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Smith) nodded his head? That suggests that the hon. Member for Islington, North has more in common with his Front-Bench colleague than the spin doctor from Hartlepool would have us believe.
Mr. Evans:
I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for pointing that out. While we hear the silence of the lambs on the Front Bench when we ask any questions, I have no doubt that many Labour Members are in agreement. During the summer, the hon. Member for Islington, North said that more than 100 Labour Members do not agree with the leadership style of the right hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair). A growing number of Labour Members simply do not agree with his rhetoric--I refer only to his rhetoric because I believe that his policies are completely different again.
We were treated to some sheer humbug from the hon. Member for Islington, North this evening. He talked about caring for pensioners, but the Labour party would not know how to care for pensioners. He referred to the fact that pensions are no longer linked to earnings, but to inflation. If pensions had been linked to inflation under the last Labour Government, pensioners' savings would not have been savaged when inflation reached 27 per cent. That was the cruellest tax of all: it indiscriminately whittled away the money that people had saved for their old age. They could not go out and find jobs.
Under the last Labour Government, people's savings were quickly whittled away over five years and their lifestyles and livelihoods were severely damaged. I do not think that the elderly will quickly forget or forgive the Labour party for the way in which they were treated by the last Labour Government.
Mr. Jenkin:
The last Labour Government committed the great sin of not only allowing inflation to eat into pensioners' savings, but changing the method of uprating so that pensions increased very little during a time of very high inflation. The last Labour Government cut the real value of pensions--that should never be forgotten.
Mr. Evans:
I am sure that that will not be forgotten.I can at least be charitable to the Labour party and say that it did not single out pensioners for the rough treatment--everyone received rough treatment when the Labour party was last in government. Those who were in work suffered when inflation was at 27 per cent.--for example, those who worked in the national health service had their take-home pay cut in real terms.
The hon. Member for Islington, North talked about single, elderly ladies--for whom he has found some new compassion. However, when the old rating system was in place, single, elderly ladies--who had lost their husbands, who were living alone in their large houses and who wished to stay there because all their memories were there--had their rates shoot up through the roof.No regard was paid to them whatsoever, and many of them had to move out of their homes simply because they could not afford to stay.
We have heard from the hon. Member for Islington, North the old Labour rhetoric of tax and spend--that is exactly what he was advocating today. I am sure that the shadow spokesman, the hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Smith), will have an opportunity to come to the Dispatch Box to answer some points about the benefit system generally, about how much more money a future Labour Government would commit to the social security budget and about where they would get that money from.
We must continue our battle against fraud--all hon. Members would want to see it combated and whittled away. The Government are taking action against fraud, and I hope that they receive support from all hon. Members. We have heard about the £100 million thatwas invested last year to combat fraud, which saved£400 million. However, it has been estimated that as much as £1,000 million could be fraudulently taken away from the £90 billion budget for social security.
People visit our surgeries and tell us stories about people whom they know, who are either working and are claiming, or who are fit and well and are receiving support
for invalidity. I urge people to give such information to the Department of Social Security so that it can be properly investigated. There is nothing wrong with that--it is not snitching; it is ensuring that the taxpayers' money is effectively spent and targeted at those who really need it. If the money is going to people who do not need it, less money is available for everyone else.
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