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Mrs. Teresa Gorman (Billericay): Is my hon. Friend aware that in the days when the friendly societies administered most of the welfare in this country--they were used by the state until 1945 to deal with benefits that the state administered--the incidence of fraud was practically zero? We cut out the moral hazard of people cheating the system because the members of each society were self-monitoring it, and those people who were likely to be defrauding the system would be dealt with through the society. There was practically no fraud at all.
Mr. Evans: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for pointing that out. I do not think that we will ever get back to a position where everyone is honest--we have to recognise that there is a dishonest element in society.We have to do as much as we can to detect fraud and stamp it out where possible. In a moment, I shall mention areas in which we are doing that. The people--many of them are women--who have to take measures against those who are trying to defraud the system deserve credit for the work that they do. Like my hon. Friend, they are very brave and tough people.
We have heard a lot about asylum seekers. Soon after I was elected, I served on the Committee that examined the Asylum and Immigration Bill. The number of people who were coming into this country, seeking asylum and applying for benefit was growing at such a massive rate that, if the Government had not taken action, the bill would have been absolutely astronomic. I applaud the measures that were taken in trying to crack down on fraud by those who were coming in to seek benefit in the first instance.
A number of people are quite obviously not genuine asylum seekers--they come here as economic refugees because they think that life and conditions in this country
are better than they are at home; I could imagine that to be so for a number of reasons. We have to be fair to the genuine asylum seekers; we must ensure that they are treated quickly so that they know where they stand and so that they get the benefits to help them live in this country.
Ms Lynne:
I agree with the hon. Gentleman that there are bogus asylum seekers, and no one would like to encourage them. However, does he agree with me that genuine asylum seekers will be caught in this net because a lot of them apply in-country, not when they arrive at the port of entry? As the hon. Gentleman was on the Committee, he must own up and accept that genuine asylum seekers will be disadvantaged as well.
Mr. Evans:
I do not accept the hon. Lady's contention--in fact, the vast majority of those who go on to appeal are not successful.
Mr. Evans:
It is 4 per cent. People who come into this country and seek asylum are not always from the traditional countries that one might expect; often, they have decided to come here to better their economic livelihoods. If they are genuine asylum seekers, they must go through the proper procedures. They must not come to this country, spend a couple of months here and then decide--when it is almost time to go home--to seek asylum. I welcome the measures that have been taken.
I welcome the introduction and the utilisation of new technology in the crackdown on fraud, wherever it exists. We have already heard that next year the Benefits Agency expects to award a contract for the automation of services at post office counters. We all remember the debate about the post offices that has raged in the House for a number of years. I welcome the fact that those who wish to have their pensions paid at post offices will still be able to do so.
I recently spoke to one of my local postmasters--they are the front-line staff as well. A lot of the postmasters and mistresses know the people who come to their counters and they know whether they are who they say they are. Over a year ago, one of the postmasters at the Barracks post office in Fulwood was able to help detect somebody who was trying fraudulently to cash a giro cheque. That is the sort of help that we get from post offices. I again applaud the work of our postmasters and mistresses who operate on a daily basis, who help those who genuinely need the money and who help to detect fraud. They also need some help.
There is much debate about ID cards. It cannot be that I mix with only a certain type of person; it seems to me that the vast majority of people would welcome the introduction of an ID card containing a photograph and a laser-etched signature. Time and again, when I speak to groups of people--not just party political groups--they agree that ID cards could help to crack down on crime, including fraud.
When such cards have been utilised by banks and building societies, they have proved to be tremendously successful in reducing credit card and cheque guarantee card fraud. Why is the system not extended generally?I cannot understand why all banks and building societies do not introduce cards with photographs and laser-etched
signatures. Why is the system not adopted generally for people who access benefits, so that they can prove who they are? It would assist them as much as anyone else.
We all have ID cards for our own security to get access to the Palace, as do our researchers. We do not mind carrying ID cards. Why cannot we extend the scheme generally so that others can benefit from it? I hope that my hon. Friend will say something about the utilisation of new technology, including ID cards, to help crack down on benefit fraud.
I was delighted by the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, South (Mr. Hawkins). My hon. Friends the Members for Blackpool, North (Mr. Elletson) and for Scarborough (Mr. Sykes) have been working extremely hard to address the benefit fraud in the DSS hostels that are damaging tourism in their constituencies. I hope that, either in the Social Security Committee or at a later stage, the Government will introduce measures that will help to crack down on such fraud.
Almost in conclusion, I welcome the incentives that have been introduced for those entering employment. People who have been out of work for two years or more are now being encouraged to take employment by the one-year national insurance holiday that starts in April. The longer people are unemployed, the harder it is for them to return to work. I welcome that incentive.
I also hope that we can do more to counter agism. After people have reached a certain age--despite the aging population, that age is getting lower--they feel that they are on the scrap heap and that employers do not want them. What a wonderful resource we have out there in people over the age of 40. They can contribute a great deal, and I hope that the Department for Education and Employment will introduce measures to help change our culture so that those people can find work.
Finally, we have to find ways of reducing the amount of money spent on social security generally. In any event, we want fewer people claiming benefits. We must ensure that Britain's enterprise economy continues. It has been developing for the past 16 years and it is still growing apace. We must maintain low inflation as it helps elderly people and those on benefits and provides security for everyone. We must not introduce the social chapter and the minimum wage in Britain. They would be disincentives to firms employing more people because social on-costs would be higher.
Mr. Harry Cohen (Leyton):
First, in relation to fraud, which we all agree must be tackled and which no one condones, I wonder whether an individual who is accused of fraud can now ask for a Scott-like inquiry. Perhaps he could use the defence that he designedly made off with the money without deliberately intending to deceive. Perhaps such an individual should have the chance to pressure the judge, get an advance copy of the case against him and have it rewritten. Perhaps that is a cynical way to start, but if deception by those at the lower end of the scale is to be punished, the same punishment should apply to Ministers--but that is an argument for another day.
The Government have a poor record on social security. The number of people dependent on benefit has doubled from one in 12 of the population in 1979 to one in six. Despite the cuts in benefit, the benefits bill has increased by £30 billion since 1979. There has also been a substantial increase in inequality. According to the Joseph Rowntree Foundation report, the income of the richest tenth of the population has risen by more than 60 per cent. while the income of the poorest tenth has fallen by 17 per cent. The number of children living in poverty has trebled from one child in 12 in 1979 to one child in four today. That is a real scandal for the Government. At the next general election, they should be called to account for forcing so many children into poverty.
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