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Mr. Madden: I agree with all that the hon. Gentleman is saying. Does he remember that, in Committee, the Minister, when pressed, found it impossible to quantify the extent either of illegal working or of illegal employment? Does he also recall that, in the consultation exercise, of the 43 respondents, only three gave broad support to the Government's proposals? Does he remember the Minister of State telling the Committee that the Government had every intention of implementing the proposals with what she described as a light touch?
Mr. Alton: The hon. Gentleman was right to mention the "light touch", which contrasts with the Minister's earlier heavy-handed intervention. She is now promising us punitive prosecutions that will be deployed against employers throughout the land. That will have a disastrous effect on industrial relations. I hope that members of the CBI will read carefully the report of our debate in Hansard so that they understand what, according to the Minister's words this afternoon, lies in store for them.
Before flying in the face of such strong and well-founded objections, most rational people would at least pause--but not the Home Office. If the Government were to accept the new clauses they would at least be creating a system of evaluation. It would be an extremely good principle if many of the other hasty and ill-considered measures that are railroaded through the House at breakneck speed were similarly subjected to an appraisal to discover whether, when enacted, they achieved the objectives set out for them by Ministers at earlier stages of deliberation.
In that spirit, I commend to hon. Members new clauses 2 and 3, which my right hon. and hon. Friends and I shall certainly support.
Mr. Gerrard:
I shall be brief.
My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, North (Mr. Henderson) spoke about the enabling nature of much of the Bill. Clause after clause of recent Bills has given Ministers powers to introduce regulations instead of detailing on the face of the Bill what will happen.
The Asylum and Immigration Bill is no different. Under clauses 8 and 9 especially, Ministers are given powers to specify who will be affected by restrictions on employment and, rights to housing and withdrawal of child benefit.
Let us suppose that a Minister chooses to lay an order just before the summer recess. There are 40 days in which prayers can be laid against a negative order, but the clock stops ticking during the long summer recess. We then have only a few days in the spill-over to finish the Session
before taking another recess. It may be the end of November before those 40 days run out and a debate takes place--if there is a debate as a result of a prayer against the negative resolution. In other words, that resolution may be in effect for five months before a debate can take place on it.
The decisions that are to be made in resolutions under the clauses are not trivial. Clauses 8, 9 and 10 depend on the definition of the word "immigrant". The Minister stated on Second Reading and again in Committee how the Government intend that the definitions will be written, but there is nothing to prevent a future Minister--or the same Minister--from deciding to change the definition of the word "immigrant". Once that happens, a new range of people may find that they lose employment, housing and child benefit.
Decisions to remove those rights from people are not trivial, and they certainly should not be taken without any opportunity for debate or scrutiny in the House. The regulations may be in force for five months before they are debated. What would happen if, at the end of that period, by some chance, Parliament were to decide to reject the Minister's regulations, which rarely happens but is possible? What is the position of a person who, in the meantime, has lost his job or house as a result of regulations introduced five months before? Decisions with such major implications for people's lives should not be made in that way.
New clause 2 proposes an alternative mechanism, requiring consultation and a positive resolution of the House before regulations come into effect. The report on the results of the consultation would allow an informed decision to be taken on the likely effects of the regulations.
The hon. Member for Liverpool, Mossley Hill(Mr. Alton) spoke of the need to examine how the Bill will operate and said that, far too often, we pass legislation without considering thereafter what happens as a result.
The Minister says that the effects of the Bill are being exaggerated. If so, I do not understand why there should be any unease about reporting its effects to Parliament. We were told that we were exaggerating the effects of the social security changes. Refugee organisations say that people turn up in their offices, penniless, because benefits are being withdrawn. I was recently told of a man who wanted to buy a bag of rice but had no money, so he tried to bargain with the shopkeeper to hold his passport as security against the bag of rice. That man was an asylum seeker whose benefits had been withdrawn. If Ministers are not worried about the effects of the Bill, let them report back.
The Bill places demands on social services and housing authorities. Ministers have said that the Government will provide local authorities with money to meet those demands; let us ensure that they do. I suspect that, in a year's time, local authorities will tell us that the sums that they have had to spend are far greater than Ministers estimated, and Ministers will tell us, "The local authorities are wrong; we have met the bills." It will probably be impossible to decide because there will be no hard factual evidence to make comparisons easy. Let us have a report showing exactly what has happened.
Amendment No. 54 deals with employment issues. The Minister scoffed when the hon. Member for Mossley Hill said that 42 different documents might have to be
recognised by an employer. In Committee, the Home Office provided us with a draft schedule, suggesting several documents.
The schedule included documents issued by previous employers, the Inland Revenue, the Benefits Agency, the Contributions Agency and the Employment Service that contain a national insurance number. That is half a dozen to start with. Also included were a birth certificate, a passport describing the holder as a British citizen or having the right of abode in the United Kingdom, a certificate of registration or naturalisation and a letter issued by the Home Office or the Department for Education and Employment, stating that the person named in the letter has permission to take employment. We are up to 12 or 14 now.
The schedule also includes a passport issued by a state that is a party to the European Economic Area agreement--not one document, but one document for every state--and an identity card issued by a state that is a party to the European Economic Area agreement, which is also not one document but may be from any of the states.
If I were presented with a document and told that it was an identity card from Luxembourg, I should have the greatest difficulty knowing whether it was an identity card from Luxembourg. What is being produced is to some extent a forgers' charter. Employers will be given documents and told, "This is an identity card from Liechtenstein"--or Luxembourg or Belgium--which they will not be qualified to recognise.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, West(Mr. Madden) said in Committee, the Government have still not closed the loophole on birth certificates, although an amendment has been tabled for consideration on Report. Anyone can obtain a birth certificate without proving that they are the person identified on it.
Those provisions will be unworkable and wide open to fraud. According to evidence gathered in the United States, where similar legislation was introduced, the measures will deter employers from employing people on whom they may have to make checks. It is not my son who will walk through an employer's door and be asked to produce a passport or birth certificate: it is the sons and daughters of my black and Asian constituents. It is likely that they will not be asked for interviews or offered jobs because employers will simply want to avoid making checks. Research in the United States showed that that is what occurred: employers were scared by the legislation and they tried to avoid implementing its provisions. They achieved that end through discrimination.
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