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Mr. Gerrard: Does the Minister acknowledge that it is not simply a matter of people losing benefit and being unable to pay their rent? Many local authorities are worried about their position under the Children Act 1989. When they have to decide how to keep a roof over children's heads, should they take them into care or--as the Children Act suggests--should they try to keep the family together, knowing that there will be no income to pay the rent?

Miss Widdecombe: We have acknowledged that there could be increased responsibilities under the Children Act. We are also discussing with local authorities how to address that. How local authorities respond to particular cases and decide whether a child is taken into care or whether another arrangement is made is a matter for them.

The hon. Member for Liverpool, Mossley Hill(Mr. Alton) is a nice chap, but he is a Liberal and he suffers the same difficulty as all of that ilk--he is a victim of his own propaganda. He has heard so much ranting about the ill effects of the Bill that he started to believe it and rant it all out in turn.

I became curious, as I listened to several speeches, as to whether we were debating the substantive issues of clause 8 rather than the new clauses and amendments. As we shall debate clause 8 in some detail in respect of other amendments on which I understand that the Opposition have asked for a sizeable debate--we all look forward to that--I do not intend to go into detail now, as it would be repetitious.

The hon. Gentleman was unable to tell me how we should tackle the problem of employers deliberately taking on illegal employees, although what he said was quite interesting. He suggested that we should throw the whole burden on the employees and take action against them, never mind the employer. That is a most interesting position for one of his persuasion. I can see that the hon. Gentleman is dying for me to give way, and I feel obliged to do so.

Mr. Alton: I would not want the Minister to misrepresent me. I said that existing law already covers employees. In her estimation, how many employers are guilty of breaking the laws by employing people illegally? When she gives us the figures, as I hope that she now will, we shall know whether there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

Miss Widdecombe: There were at least 10,000 cases of illegal working last year, and those were the ones that we found. Even if the hon. Gentleman believes that the ones that we found represent the whole case, it is obvious that there is a sizeable problem.

Perhaps I could deal with the hon. Gentleman's question about the burden on local authorities. The homelessness code of guidance for local authorities, to which they are obliged by law to have regard, already requires them to check the immigration status of homelessness applicants. It is an important point that I made in Committee, but the hon. Gentleman may have been away with his broken ankle in Liverpool and his very ill mother in Essex, as he was away for some time owing to that combination of circumstances. Since December 1994, the code has contained recommended screening procedures to achieve that without damaging

21 Feb 1996 : Column 404

race relations. There is nothing new in the measure to place on local authorities a burden of checking that does not already exist.

Mr. Alton rose--

Miss Widdecombe: If I give way to the hon. Gentleman now, it will be for the last time, and he will not get in on another point.

Mr. Alton: I am grateful to the hon. Lady. If she says that she is giving me up for Lent, I shall be quite happy to accept that privation. I must press her further on the number of employers who were prosecuted last year. Will she confirm that the number was fewer than 15?

Miss Widdecombe: It would have been difficult to prosecute when we had not yet created the offence of employing an illegal immigrant. The hon. Gentleman asks a nonsensical question.

I shall quickly address the essence of the two new clauses and the amendments, which have not been much debated. The first proposition is that procedures that we have designed to be negative should be affirmative. The regulations introduced by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Security to restrict benefit entitlement for persons from abroad were not subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, and neither are the immigration rules. I see no justification for picking orders under clauses 8 and 9, which are substantially lesser measures, to be specially subject to the affirmative procedure.

We are already consulting the Commission for Racial Equality, which has kindly offered to help us with drawing up guidance for employers on the avoidance of discriminatory recruitment practices. I share the aim of reducing, wherever possible, any adverse effect on race relations that the legislation might have by promoting discrimination. It is important that that does not happen.

6 pm

Mr. Keith Hill : Does the Minister share the concerns about the Bill's adverse effects on race relations that were expressed by the majority of organisations that responded to the illegal working proposals--in particular, those of the CRE? Is she aware of the evidence produced by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development conference in Paris a couple of years ago, showing--as my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Gerrard) demonstrated--that wherever such measures have been implemented, they have had an adverse effect on race relations? Does the Minister acknowledge the need to go further than merely consult on the terms of the documents and to measure the consequences of her proposals on race relations?

Miss Widdecombe: We are consulting the CRE because we acknowledge the genuineness of the concerns that have been expressed, and we shall draw up guidance precisely because we are anxious to avoid the effects that have been suggested. I have no reason to believe that, if that guidance is implemented, there will be the adverse effects suggested. If they were to show themselves, we would look to see what we could do to strengthen the guidance and practice.

21 Feb 1996 : Column 405

Mr. Henderson: The hon. Lady accused me of having a rant at Andrew Lansley. If there is one thing that the hon. Lady would recognise, it is a good rant. I make no apology for having a rant about Andrew Lansley, CBE and the things that he has written. I will have a rant before breakfast, before lunch, before tea and before dinner every day until the general election and beyond, if that is required to fight the Bill and its racist implications.

The Minister said that there was a lack of substance in my arguments and those of my hon. Friends, although I believe that comment was particularly directed at me. It ill behoves the hon. Lady to accuse the Opposition of a lack of substance when the Bill is no more than a skeleton enabling Bill to permit the Conservative party to campaign on a racist card from now until the general election. If the Minister wants more evidence, I shall be happy to give it.

The Bill does not specify the time limits for dealing with so-called fast-track applications from designated countries. It does not say which countries will be designated. Even at this stage, we do not know whether the list of designated countries produced in Committee is the final list. I understand from a newspaper report that other countries have been added. We do not know which documents employers will be required to check or the nature of the checks that they will be required to make on national insurance contributions. Neither do we know the resources that councils will be given to meet their housing obligations. We do not even know which persons will be covered by the Bill's provisions.

Miss Widdecombe: The hon. Gentleman proclaims the Opposition's ignorance to the world by listing a number of things that he does not know. The hon. Gentleman was in Committee--he was listening, and he knows nearly all the answers to those questions.

Mr. Henderson: I do not know the answers, and neither do my hon. Friends, because we have not been told. We shall have to wait for the Secretary of State for Social Security eventually to get around to producing an order before we have even a hint of the contents of the Bill's provisions.

The Minister said that the Bill is firm and fair in dealing with immigration rules. If that is so, why does not the hon. Lady prove that it is firm and fair, by accepting the amendments and consulting the various people who will be affected, before proceeding with a Bill that she knows contains little substance? I challenge the hon. Lady to do that. We are told that she is a conviction politician. If that is true, she will know that there is no substance to the Bill and that she will get the answers wrong if she does not consult. I challenge her to consult on the views of the CRE, employers, housing authorities and child benefit authorities.

The Government intend to charge on with the Bill regardless. We shall press the new clause to a vote because that is not good enough in any parliamentary democracy, particularly given this issue--which everyone in the House recognises is one of great sensitivity for many sections of the community.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:--

The House divided: Ayes 250, Noes 273.

21 Feb 1996 : Column 406

Division No. 57
[6.07 pm


AYES


Abbott, Ms Diane
Adams, Mrs Irene
Ainger, Nick
Allen, Graham
Alton, David
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale)
Armstrong, Hilary
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy
Ashton, Joe
Austin-Walker, John
Barnes, Harry
Barron, Kevin
Battle, John
Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret
Beith, Rt Hon A J
Benn, Rt Hon Tony
Bennett, Andrew F
Benton, Joe
Bermingham, Gerald
Betts, Clive
Blair, Rt Hon Tony
Blunkett, David
Boateng, Paul
Bradley, Keith
Bray, Dr Jeremy
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)
Brown, N (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Burden, Richard
Caborn, Richard
Callaghan, Jim
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Campbell-Savours, D N
Cann, Jamie
Carlile, Alexander (Montgomery)
Chidgey, David
Church, Judith
Clapham, Michael
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Cook, Robin (Livingston)
Corbett, Robin
Corbyn, Jeremy
Corston, Jean
Cousins, Jim
Cox, Tom
Cummings, John
Cunliffe, Lawrence
Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)
Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John
Cunningham, Roseanna
Dafis, Cynog
Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral)
Davies, Chris (L'Boro & S'worth)
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)
Denham, John
Dewar, Donald
Dixon, Don
Dobson, Frank
Donohoe, Brian H
Dowd, Jim
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eastham, Ken
Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Fatchett, Derek
Faulds, Andrew
Fisher, Mark
Flynn, Paul
Foster, Rt Hon Derek
Foster, Don (Bath)
Fyfe, Maria
Galbraith, Sam
Garrett, John
George, Bruce
Gerrard, Neil
Godman, Dr Norman A
Godsiff, Roger
Golding, Mrs Llin
Gordon, Mildred
Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grocott, Bruce
Gunnell, John
Hain, Peter
Hall, Mike
Hanson, David
Hardy, Peter
Harman, Ms Harriet
Harvey, Nick
Henderson, Doug
Heppell, John
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hinchliffe, David
Hodge, Margaret
Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld)
Home Robertson, John
Hoon, Geoffrey
Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A)
Howells, Dr Kim (Pontypridd)
Hoyle, Doug
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)
Hughes, Roy (Newport E)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark)
Hutton, John
Illsley, Eric
Ingram, Adam
Jackson, Glenda (H'stead)
Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H)
Janner, Greville
Johnston, Sir Russell
Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side)
Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Mon)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Jowell, Tessa
Keen, Alan
Kennedy, Charles (Ross,C&S)
Kennedy, Jane (L'pool Br'dg'n)
Khabra, Piara S
Kilfoyle, Peter
Kirkwood, Archy
Lestor, Joan (Eccles)
Liddell, Mrs Helen
Litherland, Robert
Livingstone, Ken
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)
Llwyd, Elfyn
Lynne, Ms Liz
McAllion, John
McAvoy, Thomas
McCartney, Ian
Macdonald, Calum
McFall, John
McKelvey, William
Mackinlay, Andrew
Maclennan, Robert
McMaster, Gordon
McNamara, Kevin
McWilliam, John
Madden, Max
Maddock, Diana
Mahon, Alice
Mandelson, Peter
Marek, Dr John
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S)
Martin, Michael J (Springburn)
Martlew, Eric
Maxton, John
Meacher, Michael
Michael, Alun
Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute)
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Moonie, Dr Lewis
Morgan, Rhodri
Morley, Elliot
Morris, Rt Hon Alfred (Wy'nshawe)
Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Mowlam, Marjorie
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Paul
Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)
O'Brien, Mike (N W'kshire)
O'Brien, William (Normanton)
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
Parry, Robert
Pearson, Ian
Pendry, Tom
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Pope, Greg
Powell, Ray (Ogmore)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Prescott, Rt Hon John
Primarolo, Dawn
Purchase, Ken
Quin, Ms Joyce
Radice, Giles
Raynsford, Nick
Reid, Dr John
Rendel, David
Robertson, George (Hamilton)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rogers, Allan
Rooker, Jeff
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Ruddock, Joan
Salmond, Alex
Sedgemore, Brian
Sheerman, Barry
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Short, Clare
Simpson, Alan
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Chris (Isl'ton S & F'sbury)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Soley, Clive
Spearing, Nigel
Spellar, John
Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W)
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stott, Roger
Strang, Dr. Gavin
Straw, Jack
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Touhig, Don
Trickett, Jon
Tyler, Paul
Vaz, Keith
Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold
Wallace, James
Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
Watson, Mike
Welsh, Andrew
Wicks, Malcolm
Wigley, Dafydd
Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W)
Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Wilson, Brian
Winnick, David
Wise, Audrey
Worthington, Tony
Wray, Jimmy
Wright, Dr Tony
Young, David (Bolton SE)

Tellers for the Ayes:


Mrs. Bridget Prentice and
Mr. Malcolm Chisholm.


NOES


Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)
Aitken, Rt Hon Jonathan
Alexander, Richard
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)
Amess, David
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)
Ashby, David
Atkins, Rt Hon Robert
Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baker, Rt Hon Kenneth (Mole V)
Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset)
Baldry, Tony
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Banks, Robert (Harrogate)
Bates, Michael
Batiste, Spencer
Bendall, Vivian
Beresford, Sir Paul
Biffen, Rt Hon John
Body, Sir Richard
Booth, Hartley
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia
Bowden, Sir Andrew
Bowis, John
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Sir Graham
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Browning, Mrs Angela
Budgen, Nicholas
Butcher, John
Butterfill, John
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln)
Carrington, Matthew
Carttiss, Michael
Cash, William
Channon, Rt Hon Paul
Chapman, Sir Sydney
Churchill, Mr
Clappison, James
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ru'clif)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coe, Sebastian
Colvin, Michael
Congdon, David
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Couchman, James
Cran, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)
Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)
Davies, Quentin (Stamford)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Day, Stephen
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Devlin, Tim
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Dover, Den
Duncan-Smith, Iain
Dunn, Bob
Durant, Sir Anthony
Dykes, Hugh
Eggar, Rt Hon Tim
Elletson, Harold
Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Evennett, David
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Fishburn, Dudley
Forman, Nigel
Forth, Eric
Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Fox, Rt Hon Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
French, Douglas
Fry, Sir Peter
Gale, Roger
Gardiner, Sir George
Garnier, Edward
Gill, Christopher
Gillan, Cheryl
Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Gorst, Sir John
Grant, Sir A (SW Cambs)
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Grylls, Sir Michael
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archibald
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Hampson, Dr Keith
Hannam, Sir John
Hargreaves, Andrew
Haselhurst, Sir Alan
Hawkins, Nick
Hawksley, Warren
Hayes, Jerry
Heald, Oliver
Heath, Rt Hon Sir Edward
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David
Hendry, Charles
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael
Hicks, Robert
Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence
Hill, James (Southampton Test)
Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)
Horam, John
Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)
Hunter, Andrew
Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas
Jack, Michael
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jessel, Toby
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Jones, Robert B (W Hertfdshr)
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
King, Rt Hon Tom
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knapman, Roger
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Rt Hon Greg (Derby N)
Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)
Knox, Sir David
Kynoch, George (Kincardine)
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lamont, Rt Hon Norman
Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Legg, Barry
Leigh, Edward
Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark
Lidington, David
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Lord, Michael
Luff, Peter
MacKay, Andrew
Maclean, Rt Hon David
McLoughlin, Patrick
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick
Madel, Sir David
Maitland, Lady Olga
Malone, Gerald
Marland, Paul
Marlow, Tony
Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Mates, Michael
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian
Mellor, Rt Hon David
Merchant, Piers
Mills, Iain
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Moate, Sir Roger
Monro, Rt Hon Sir Hector
Needham, Rt Hon Richard
Nelson, Anthony
Neubert, Sir Michael
Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Nicholls, Patrick
Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley
Oppenheim, Phillip
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, James
Patnick, Sir Irvine
Patten, Rt Hon John
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Pawsey, James
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Pickles, Eric
Porter, Barry (Wirral S)
Porter, David (Waveney)
Portillo, Rt Hon Michael
Powell, William (Corby)
Rathbone, Tim
Redwood, Rt Hon John
Renton, Rt Hon Tim
Richards, Rod
Riddick, Graham
Robathan, Andrew
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)
Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)
Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela
Ryder, Rt Hon Richard
Sackville, Tom
Sainsbury, Rt Hon Sir Timothy
Scott, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian
Shepherd, Sir Colin (Hereford)
Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Sims, Roger
Skeet, Sir Trevor
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Soames, Nicholas
Spencer, Sir Derek
Spicer, Sir James (W Dorset)
Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)
Spink, Dr Robert
Spring, Richard
Sproat, Iain
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Steen, Anthony
Stern, Michael
Stewart, Allan
Streeter, Gary
Sweeney, Walter
Sykes, John
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Thornton, Sir Malcolm
Thurnham, Peter
Townend, John (Bridlington)
Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)
Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael
Twinn, Dr Ian
Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Viggers, Peter
Waldegrave, Rt Hon William
Walden, George
Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Waller, Gary
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel
Wells, Bowen
Whitney, Ray
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Ann
Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld)
Wolfson, Mark
Wood, Timothy
Yeo, Tim
Young, Rt Hon Sir George

Tellers for the Noes:


Mr. Derek Conway and
Mr. Simon Burns.

Question accordingly negatived.

21 Feb 1996 : Column 409

New clause 5

Victims of torture


'.--(1) Nothing in this Act shall apply to a person who has made a claim for asylum where a registered medical practitioner (within the meaning of the Medical Act 1983) has issued a certificate, in a form to be prescribed, stating in good faith that he is of the opinion that that person has been tortured.
(2) After section 12 of the 1993 Act the following section shall be inserted--
"Victims of torture
12A. Nothing in this Act shall apply to a person who has made a claim for asylum where a registered medical practitioner (within the meaning of the Medical Act 1983) has issued a certificate, in a form to be prescribed, stating in good faith that he is of the opinion that that person has been tortured.".
(3) After section 1 of the 1971 Act the following section shall be inserted--
"Victims of torture
1A. Nothing in this Act shall apply to a person who has made a claim for asylum where a registered medical practitioner (within the meaning of the Medical Act 1983) has issued a certificate, in a form to be prescribed, stating in good faith that he is of the opinion that that person has been tortured.".'.--[Mr. Alton.]
Brought up, and read the First time.

21 Feb 1996 : Column 410

Mr. Alton: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

I am grateful to those hon. Members from other parties who have added their names to the new clause, because that demonstrates the breadth of concern about victims of torture and the way they are treated. That concern extends to the attempt to have them excluded from the fast-track procedures, which is the purpose of new clause 5. The issue has excited interest during the passage of the Bill, and most of us have received letters about the treatment of victims of torture who have sought asylum in the United Kingdom. The issue is consistently raised by the Medical Foundation for the Care of Victims of Torture, and that is why I have tabled new clause 5.

There is always a danger in debates about immigration of over-exaggeration, and expressions such as "being swamped" and "millions of people" are used. I wish to put the matter into perspective. During 1995, the Medical Foundation for the Care of Victims of Torture provided physical, psychological and practical help to approximately 1,600 survivors of torture from 65 countries. The great majority of those people were asylum seekers who had fled persecution, imprisonment and torture, and who had arrived in the United Kingdom to seek a place of safety. They had left everything behind, including families, homes and jobs.

It is impossible to rehabilitate survivors of torture if they are frightened and uncertain about whether they will be returned to their country of origin to face further persecution. The safety and welfare of those people, and anything that affects that, is therefore the paramount concern of organisations such as the Medical Foundation for the Care of Victims of Torture.

The foundation is a dispassionate, impartial body that has an extraordinarily good track record which is admired by hon. Members from all parties. It says that it is


It claims that the legislation would


Who are the survivors of torture? Studies, including the Home Office's document "The Settlement of Refugees in Britain", which was published in 1995, confirm that torture victims are, first, people who did not want to be refugees. Secondly, the vast majority have left behind far more in terms of jobs, homes and futures than they will ever gain by coming to this country.

A debate of this kind should centre on justice, not numbers. We often lose sight of the scale of human suffering. I shall give an example from northern Cyprus of the type of people we are talking about. I shall quote Amnesty International and the American State Department, because their comments about Cyprus relate directly to my example. Amnesty International, in its 1995 report, described


The American State Department, in its country reports on human rights in 1994, said:


21 Feb 1996 : Column 411

Those quotations are significant, because Cyprus now appears on the so-called designated list.

The example I wish to mention is a Cypriot opposition politician. In 1990 and 1992, he was put up as a candidate for Parliament. He was working on a federal solution to the Cyprus problems. He was arrested in 1992, and kept in the police station for four days. He was interrogated and accused of illegal activities. He was beaten, and suffered felaka with black plastic truncheons. His feet were swollen and very painful for three weeks, in spite of salt water baths. His daughters were beaten at school.

In October 1993, he fled to the United Kingdom with his family and applied for asylum at the airport. In 1995, his asylum application was refused, and he was deported. On his return to Cyprus, he attempted to leave and go to Turkey. At the airport, the civil police arrested him and took him away. Three police officers and another armed man interrogated him in a small room, and beat him severely on the back and shoulders.

I will not weary the House with all the details of what followed, but I shall quote the view of Dr. Gordon Barclay, who treated that man. Dr. Barclay is a senior fellow of the Association of Surgeons of Great Britain and Ireland and a senior member of the British Association of Urological Surgeons. He said about the man in question:


Dr. Barclay added:


I have emphasised this case because, on 17 January, only a few days ago, the immigration and nationality department of Lunar house sent a letter to the individual concerned telling him that he was being deported from the United Kingdom. The letter was signed by Lynn Parsons of the asylum division.

I found the letter extraordinarily brutal, disingenuous and entirely lacking even in common courtesy, let alone compassion. An official who has probably never even met the man concerned, writing on behalf of the Secretary of State, who certainly had not met him, had this to say:


We are talking about 100 scars on the man's back. The letter continues:


I have only recently mentioned the reports of Amnesty International and the American State Department.


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