| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
9.7 pm
Sir Michael Marshall (Arundel): I am grateful for the opportunity to take part in the debate, even at this late stage.
I begin by declaring my interest as a lifelong exporter of English goods and services. In view of the issues that have been mentioned, I should explain that I was adviser to British Aerospace and, as a former Minister, had an opportunity for two and a half years to play my small part, in the dim and distant past, in promoting British defence exports. I emphasise that the views that I express tonight are my own.
I express my incredulity at some of the comments that have been made about defence exports. One of the strengths of the debate has been that speeches have been made by many right hon. and hon. Members who have served in a ministerial capacity, so the House has had the benefit of their direct experience. I commend, to those who may have not heard it, the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King), who encapsulated the position that arose during the Gulf war and compared, to great effect, our restraint with that of other countries, which had filled the void in the supply of lethal weapons that had been created by our willingness to show restraint.
I hope that we can return to that subject as it relates to defence sales, because those who drew attention to it tonight reminded us that if we had not had the Spitfire and the Hurricane, this country would probably be a German colony today. We must play our part in the defence of our friends around the world.
The hon. Member for Rhondda (Mr. Rogers) queried the appropriateness of some of the projects in which we are involved. He mentioned Al Yamanah, which is a classic example of a project that has brought a huge amount of civil engineering work to this country. It was invaluable in defending Saudi Arabia against invasion by Saddam Hussein. Its airfields--which were provided by Britain--were a key base for allied forces, and the provision of pilot training by British Aerospace andthe supply of equipment were crucial to our success in the Gulf war.
Defence sales require commercial confidentiality. There is a certain naive tendency to assume that, as long as we are satisfied, the rest of the world must put up with it. Anyone who follows such matters will know that,if we were to opt for more open disclosure, as some would urge, there would be a real danger of our excluding ourselves from opportunities around the world. Many countries believe that that kind of information is classified, and they would look to other suppliers. In all candour, I am worried that our competitors will go through the report with a fine tooth comb and will quote--even out of context--the arguments about placing future contracts with Britain.
That brings me to the guidelines. It has been well argued tonight that they have no place in statute. Anyone with even modest ministerial experience understands the difference between guidelines and policy. Anyone who reads the report can see that any changes in the guidelines were made with the best intentions and that what occurred thereafter was an attempt to balance many difficult issues.
I pay tribute to the speech of the right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore). He reflected on his ministerial experience, and his answer to parliamentary questions has been quoted several times in the debate. His experience shows that one must balance some extremely difficult issues and that the idea of complete openness raises enormous problems. I welcome an opportunity to debate that issue. However, in the light of what has occurred--particularly from 1988 onwards--the Government's actions seem perfectly clear. They followed closely the precedents set by both the Labour and the Conservative parties when they were in government.
It has been pointed out that Secretaries of State must be involved in any change in policy: it is absurd to assume that junior Ministers could carry forward significant policy changes. Therefore, I am entirely clear about the argument, which is moving in a purely party political direction in attacking my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General and my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary.
In considering what might occur in the future, we must look carefully at some of the Scott proposals. I pay tribute to that massive work, but we must reflect on the fact that it represents the opinion of only one man. It is perfectly clear that there are many other legal opinions--but I shall leave that matter to the lawyers. Sir Richard Scott's opinion cannot be taken as gospel, although some of his proposals and recommendations are worth careful consideration by the House.
I strongly support any examination of Customs and Excise operations. In my constituency and throughout my ministerial career, I have seen the "pressing on regardless" approach of Customs and Excise and Inland Revenue create real problems. Any reluctance on their part--which is founded on very honourable traditions of ministerial non-intervention in the activities of prosecution in those Departments--must be reviewed. Having said that,I join--perhaps surprisingly--the argument of the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn). With the benefit of hindsight, it is clear that the inquiry would have been handled better by a special Select Committee of the House. The opportunities that it would have provided in
taking evidence to balance the political arguments and to produce more clear-cut and definite recommendations for the future would have been of benefit.
I think back to my five years on the Defence Select Committee. I will retire at the next election and I do not want to embarrass Opposition Members, but one of my most salutary experiences was to find on a Defence Select Committee, when defence was not a very fashionable subject among the Opposition, a number of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen--I shall not name them--whose integrity and motivation in protecting Britain's defence interests was clear. If the Labour party were in power, we would have look to them for our defence.
I return to an argument that I advanced during Prime Minister's questions last week. The hon. Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook) must reflect on the process of defence and defence sales and on the fact that in the real world there has to be a measure of trust. We cannot prescribe in guidelines or legislation something to cover such eventualities as have been described tonight. There must be a willingness to trust, but I would certainly go along with the view that the Select Committee system, which allows for confidentiality and sidelining, provides an opportunity for more openness within Parliament. That is why I would have preferred the matters to have been examined by a special Select Committee rather than by Sir Richard Scott.
Mr. Peter Hardy (Wentworth):
In recent years,hon. Members on both sides of the House have devoted considerable time and perhaps made a not insignificant contribution to the development of parliamentary democracy in eastern and central Europe. Recent events, however, lead me to suggest that none of us should now be able to look into the eyes of those with whom we have had conversations over the past few years. The events on silly Thursday 15 February, when hon. Members were engaged in the most farcical demonstration of mismanagement, give the lie to any claim to maturity on our part. The fact that Parliament was prepared to see hon. Members given 10 minutes to collect and study five volumes of an important report is rather ridiculous. That is matched by the campaign of mismanagement--or press management--by the Government in recent months in their attempt to rubbish the report.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |