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Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North): Is it not essential for the British and Irish Governments to work closely together? Is it not unfortunate that some hon. Members take a different view about that?
On terrorist violence, did the Prime Minister notice the massive demonstrations against violence last weekend in the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland? Apart from elections in the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland, do not those demonstrations show that the IRA does not speak with the authority of the Irish people, and that it is nonsense for some people outside the House to make a comparison with the middle east or elsewhere? The IRA is a minority within a minority within a minority, and it is a pity that the British and Irish Governments do not make that clear in the United States and many other places abroad.
The Prime Minister:
I agree with the thrust of the hon. Gentleman's remarks, which are certainly correct. The terrorists are a minority within a minority. They do not represent a majority view in any part of the United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland, and the Irish Government have expressed the same distaste for their campaign of terror that we have expressed repeatedly in the House.
We put an enormous amount of effort, in the United States and elsewhere, into making plain the majority view about the terrorists. Members of a number of democratic parties--certainly members of the Ulster Unionist party, members of the Ulster Democratic Unionist party and members of the British Government--have all been to the United States in the very recent past on more than one occasion to set before the opinion formers and the public in the United States what the majority view is in the United Kingdom about the activities of the IRA. I think that that is beginning to make some progress, and I hope that it will continue. I believe that the same attitude will be taken by members of the Irish Government as well.
Madam Speaker:
Thank you, Prime Minister. We shall now move on.
Mr. Secretary Dorrell, supported by Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Secretary Gummer, Secretary Sir Patrick Mayhew, Mr. Secretary Forsyth, Mr. Secretary Hague and Mr. John Horam, presented (under Standing Order No. 48 (Procedure upon Bills whose main object is to create a charge upon the public revenue)) a Bill to make provision with respect to the transfer of liabilities of certain National Health Service bodies in the event of their ceasing to exist: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 67.]
Secretary Sir George Young, supported by Mr. Secretary Lang, Mr. Secretary Gummer and Mr. Steve Norris, presented a Bill to extend, and facilitate the exercise of, the powers of London Regional Transport to enter into and carry out agreements; and for connected purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 68.]
Mr. David Hinchliffe, supported by Ms Rachel Squire, Ms Liz Lynne, Ms Dawn Primarolo, Ms Tessa Jowell, Rev. Martin Smyth, Mr. Roger Sims, Mr. Andrew Rowe, Mr. Malcolm Wicks, Mr. Ian McCartney, Mr. John Gunnell and Mr. Kevin Hughes, presented a Bill to make provision for the registration of domiciliary care agencies; to make provisions consequential thereon; and for connected purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 10 May and to be printed. [Bill 69.]
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris):
With permission, I shall put together the motions relating to delegated legislation.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 101(4) (Standing Committees on Delegated Legislation),
Mr. Dafydd Wigley (Caernarfon):
I beg to move,
As I follow what was a momentous statement, which we all hope will signify progress in Northern Ireland, I might say that if there had been a flexible approach 100 years ago, when the troubles of Ireland were so high on the political agenda, we might not today be faced with the difficulties in the six counties of the north of Ireland.
I introduce my Bill with mixed feelings. I feel satisfaction that I have been given time to introduce it, and, of course, satisfaction because of the importance of the issue, particularly as this is the 22nd anniversary of my election to the House, on 28 February 1974, and the closest opportunity to St. David's day. We had a Labour Government then, and it is a matter of great regret that they did not succeed in putting into operation a meaningful assembly or parliament for Wales and for Scotland.
I also feel some frustration. When I was first elected, I expected that a parliament for Wales would be set up fairly quickly. The recommendations of the Kilbrandon report in 1973 gave a certain credence to that. It will be 17 years ago this St. David's day that the ill-fated referendum on Labour's previous abortive effort on the matter took place. Had we established a powerful parliament for Wales in 1979, Wales would have avoided the worst excesses of the Thatcher decade. We have had four Secretaries of State for Wales since then--I am glad that the present Secretary of State is in his place to hear the debate--who have not represented Welsh constituencies. That has been an ignominy for Wales, and it could have been avoided.
Had we had a parliament for Wales in 1979, we would have avoided the disastrous policies of that decade: the poll tax; the cack-handed local government reorganisation that we are going through at the moment; water privatisation; the decimation of the national health service, particularly the dental service; and the creation of a two-tier education system in Wales, which we most certainly do not want.
For the past 17 years, Wales has been governed on the basis of the priorities of south-east England, not the priorities of the people of Wales. We have been governed by a Tory regime which was not elected by the people of Wales. Never in any election from 1868 onwards have the Conservatives held a majority of seats in Wales. Indeed, in some elections, they have not held any. Yet we have had Tory policies, for which we did not vote, thrust upon us. Recent examples of legislation forced on Wales include the Local Government (Wales) Act 1994 and the Welsh Language Act 1993, which were dealt with by Committees of the House that were dominated by Conservatives from English constituencies, who did not know the background to the issues and did not have to live with the consequence of the legislation.
The very reason for having a Secretary of State for Wales in the Cabinet has been undermined in recent years. He should be the authentic voice of Wales, articulating
the hopes of Wales as a nation, spelling out our fears, speaking up for our aspirations and our trepidations. Instead, we have a Secretary of State--whatever his abilities--who has never lived in Wales, has never faced the Welsh electorate in a general election and whose party was overwhelmingly rejected at the polls in Wales. Rather than an advocate for Wales, we have a salesman travelling the length and breadth of Wales as an apologist on behalf of the Cabinet.
We are governed in an outmoded colonial fashion, and it is high time that that came to an end. Furthermore, there is a total absence of Welsh representation in Brussels when the Council of Ministers discusses vital issues such as agriculture. The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food for England attends those discussions. The Secretary of State for Wales has never been there. Vital issues such as milk quotas and the sheepmeat regime are now determined in Brussels rather than in the House.
Likewise, Welsh industry and commerce has missed out by not having a voice in Brussels to get regional policies that suit our needs. We can compare the position in Wales with the successful deals that Ireland has succeeded in getting from the European Union, and the 6 per cent. growth rate that Ireland has obtained as a result. In terms of the accountability of the Welsh Office and its 80 quangos, the answerability of the Executive and the £7 billion budget of the Welsh Office, the formulation of legislation to meet Welsh needs and values, the voice of Wales in the Cabinet or the direct links between Wales and the European Union, the truth is that the present system of government has broken down and is not serving Wales. We do not have any meaningful democracy at the all-Wales level.
My Bill is a modest attempt to put that right. It would set up a directly elected democratic parliament for Wales. The lower chamber would consist of 100 Members elected by proportional representation, and the upper chamber would consist of two representatives from each of the unitary authorities in Wales. It would have full legislative power for all Welsh Office functions, including education, employment, housing, health, transport, arts, environment and agriculture. If I cannot carry certain Labour Members with me on the proportional representation part of my argument, I remind them that that is their proposal for a parliament for Scotland in due course.
The parliament would have control of the civil service, which is currently answerable to the Welsh Office. It would have full legislative responsibilities for all functions undertaken by the quangos in order to overcome the way in which the Tory Government succeed in getting their writs to run in Wales in a discredited and secretive system of patronage, which is not acceptable to the people of Wales. The parliament would be funded initially by the current block grant plus some £25 million for administrative costs, but we hope that within three years there would be a Welsh Treasury Department, which would collect all the taxes arising from Wales.
The Bill does not present Plaid Cymru's ultimate aim of full self-government within Europe. We accept that we cannot go in one jump from the status quo of no national democracy to full independence, but we believe that, after five years of the government that we propose in the Bill, the people of Wales should be allowed, if they so wish,
the opportunity to decide by referendum on moving to self-government. However, that is not the proposal in the Bill. Under the Bill, there are functions that are not currently devolved to the Welsh Office and that should remain at Westminster: defence, foreign affairs, social security and certain trade matters.
The Secretary of State for Wales would remain, as, of course, would the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, under the Government's proposals for an elected legislative assembly for Northern Ireland. Incidentally, it is instructive that the Tories are prepared to yield such an assembly to Northern Ireland in the wake of the bombs and the bullets, but for those of us in Wales, who have pursued our politics through constitutional and democratic means, it appears that the Conservatives have nothing but a closed door.
That the Civil Aviation Act (Investigation of Accidents) Regulations 1996 (S.I., 1996, No. 76) be referred to a Standing Committee on Delegated Legislation.
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide for the improvement of democracy in Wales; to establish a legislative Parliament elected by proportional representation in Wales; to secure a direct role for Wales in the institutions of the European Union; and for connected purposes.
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