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Mr. Wallace: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The point that I raised with the Minister in his speech probably has more significance than I thought at the time. We are debating the draft Housing Support Grant (Scotland) Order. It states that, under the terms of the Housing (Scotland) Act 1987, the order shall not be made until a draft has been laid before the House, with a report of the considerations leading to the order's provisions, and until that has been approved by a resolution of the House.
The definition of a report is found in section 192(3) of that Act, which states that the report should
This purported report is informative, but does not meet the statutory requirement because Orkney islands council is omitted from it. It is an interesting document, but has no legal status. Even if approved by the House, the draft order will not therefore satisfy statute in giving the Secretary of State the power to make housing support grant payments.
I am concerned because the other half of my constituency--covered by the Shetland islands council--is due to receive about £3.9 million. I would hate to find that the Secretary of State could not legally pay that money. Can you rule, Madam Deputy Speaker, whether we are debating a competent order, and whether, if we proceed to make a resolution, it will carry no legal weight? Does the Minister intend to introduce a draft order with a report that meets the statutory requirement?
Mr. Archy Kirkwood (Roxburgh and Berwickshire):
Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Madam Deputy Speaker:
Order. I think that I can rule on this matter now. There may be a flaw, but that is not for the occupants of the Chair to determine. The only matter for them is whether the motion is in order, and it is. The Minister must answer any points about flaws in the order that the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace) detects.
Mr. Kirkwood:
Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Madam Deputy Speaker:
I think that the Minister wishes to comment.
Mr. Raymond S. Robertson:
Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I can confirm that the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace) is right that Orkney islands council has been omitted from the order. It is a printing error that does not affect the order's validity.
Mr. Kirkwood:
Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Madam Deputy Speaker:
Is it a short point of order?
Mr. Kirkwood:
It is short, but important. When we consider the parent legislation under which the order and the report are being discussed, the case that has been made by my hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace) is incontrovertibly true. The exchanges that are taking place are able to be considered by the courts. Some people would have a locus in taking out an interdict if the order went through in this clearly defective state.
Madam Deputy Speaker:
Order. I have made the point clearly that it is not a matter on which the occupant of the Chair can rule. It may be a matter for debate and for answer by the Minister, but that is as far as it can be taken by the occupant of the Chair tonight.
Mr. Kirkwood:
Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am grateful for that ruling. I understand that it is not a matter for the occupant of the Chair--that is clear--but it is a matter for people who might suffer as a result of the House passing a defective order.
Mr. Kirkwood:
There is a time limit.
Madam Deputy Speaker:
Order. I am aware of that. I have already said that I can deal only with points of order that are relevant to the occupant of the Chair.
Mr. Raymond S. Robertson:
Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The order that has been laid before the House is correct and we are voting on the amounts of housing support grant to be paid.
Madam Deputy Speaker:
The hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland has made it clear that he is concerned not with that point, but with the report. Again, that is not a matter for me. The debate is short and it should now continue.
Mr. Phil Gallie (Ayr):
Having listened with great interest to the points of order, I should like to return to the speech by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Provan (Mr. Wray). After his speech, there cannot be a dry eye in the House. I respect his views. He is totally honest. Unlike perhaps many of the people who purport to support the Labour party these days, he sticks to his traditional beliefs. He has forgotten many things that have happened in Glasgow in recent years. In the 1950s and 1960s, when Conservative Governments were in power, money was poured into local government and housing in Glasgow. That raised standards considerably. Since Margaret Thatcher was elected as Prime Minister, massive improvements have taken place in Glasgow through repairs and improvement grants. Money went into Glasgow and uplifted it in a way that could never have been dreamt of by the people with whom the hon. Member for Provan served on councils in years gone by.
The hon. Gentleman said that if the Labour party were in power, it could provide £4 billion to write off the council housing debt. That is nine times the annual amount of the tartan tax that the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. Robertson) would impose on us should he ever get his hands on the reins of power. At least the hon. Member for Provan has been honest about the figure.
I never fail to be impressed by the honesty that flows from the tongue of the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. McAllion). However, I do not go along with his opinions and occasionally his facts are wrong, but he always believes in what he says. Perhaps some Opposition Members should take note of that.
In one or two areas, there have been massive changes in recent times. The greatest of those changes has been the way in which people are given the means for adequate housing through housing benefit. That benefit currently injects some £620 million a year into local authority housing.
Mr. Bill Walker (North Tayside):
While my hon. Friend is addressing the issue of housing benefit, will he remind the House that if councils had put up their rents to economic levels to allow for maintenance, much if not all of the rents would have been paid through housing benefit to those who were eligible and money could have gone straight into the housing coffers? Mismanagement by socialist or nationalist authorities has led to this situation.
Mr. Gallie:
I agree with my hon. Friend, and I shall give him a good example of that. Kyle and Carrick district council has put up its rents, but at the same time it has invested massively in its housing stock, upgrading it to such an extent that I defy any hon. Member to say that in his constituency he has better local authority housing.
The predecessor of the hon. Member for Cunninghame, South (Mr. Donohoe) was David Lambie, a guy for whom I have every respect. He was a tremendous constituency Member, but he was totally misguided on this issue. Through their council links over the years, he and his family depressed rents in the Saltcoats area and other parts of north Ayrshire and reduced the quality of housing. At the same time, he had the audacity to come to the House and earn a good salary while living in one of the council
houses that he was attempting to protect. Nowadays that would not be allowed, because housing benefit recognises the ability to pay. That is fair.
Mr. Brian H. Donohoe (Cunninghame, South)
rose--
Mr. Gallie:
I shall give way to the hon. Member for Provan.
Mr. Wray:
The one thing that the hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Gallie) has established is that there are at least two honest men in the House. Will he be truthful and say whether he agrees that a local authority such as that in Glasgow should stop receiving housing support grants?
Mr. Gallie:
Yes, I have no difficulty in agreeing to that, provided that there is a means to back tenants who need support, and housing benefit does just that. It is provided by central taxpayers and does not place the burden on other council house residents. It simply spreads the burden and that is fair and right.
Mr. Donohoe:
The hon. Gentleman lives in an unreal world. He has lived all his days in the leafy suburbs of either West Kilbride or Ayr: he has never lived in the middle of a slum area. That is part of the problem that he faces in debating housing allocation. I do not represent Saltcoats, but I know that the housing stock there is among the best in Cunninghame and always has been. That is all down to the good management of the old Saltcoats town council.
Mr. Gallie:
For a start, the hon. Gentleman's facts are all wrong. I came from an area in Fife that was not known for its leafy suburbs. I lived in a public sector house: my family certainly did not own it. As usual, the hon. Gentleman is way off beam. He is also wrong about housing stock in Saltcoats. I was on Cunninghame district council from 1980 to 1984 and at that time the worst housing stock in Cunninghame was in Saltcoats. He should retract every word that he has said about that, and when he speaks in future he should make sure that he has the facts and not a load of rubbish, which is what he has just spoken.
"contain a table showing in respect of each local authority, for the year in question--
(a) the estimated amount of grant payable to that local authority; or
(b) if no amount of grant is so payable, that fact."
8.7 pm
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