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Mr. Morgan: Rather than making snide remarks about the three leaders of the Opposition parties, perhaps the Minister should concentrate his efforts on doing the same as my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly(Mr. Davies). If he can persuade the Leader of the Opposition to visit the scene of the Sea Empress tragedy in Pembroke, perhaps the Minister should concentrate his efforts on persuading the Prime Minister to do so.
Mr. Richards: The hon. Gentleman knows that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales has visited Pembrokeshire twice, which brings me to the stand-in for the hon. Member for Caerphilly--the verbally incontinent Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan). May I go through some of his points?
The first thing I noticed was that, yet again, the hon. Gentleman indulged in the practice that Opposition Members enjoy: talking Wales down. He devoted much of his speech to talking it down. He challenged my right hon. Friend not to look through rose-tinted glasses. We do not have to do that to realise that, in the past 17 years, Wales has done well. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would like to dine on some of the facts that I am about to present to him on the Welsh economy's strengths.
In the past 10 years, manufacturing employment has risen by some 12.5 per cent. From September 1994 to September 1995, manufacturing employment in Wales rose by 1.5 per cent.--over twice the increase rate in the United Kingdom. Since September 1985, manufacturing employment in Wales has grown by more than in any
other region. The number of unemployed people in Wales has fallen by 29,400. [Hon. Members: "What about since 1979?"] Opposition Members talk about 1979. They were all around then and they know as well as I that, in 1979, the hidden unemployment level in terms of overmanning was so great that it could not be measured.
The hon. Gentleman spoke about inward investment. Since 1979, Wales has done well out of inward investment. He may recall that, on occasion, Conservative Members quoted inward investment running at 22 or more per cent. of all inward investment in the United Kingdom.
On the south Wales freight terminal, my right hon. Friend made it clear in the House on 8 November that the provision of a freight facility in south Wales is a matter for the commercial and technical judgment of investors, who do not need Ministers' permission to build a terminal in any location.
Various applications for assistance are still being carefully considered. Decisions will depend on the assessment of further commercial information that has been sought from the applicants. Grants cannot be paid until satisfactory cases have been made.
Mr. Michael:
Will the Minister give way?
Mr. Richards:
I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman.
The hon. Member for Cardiff, West challenged my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State by saying that he was not accountable to the people of Wales. My right hon. Friend is accountable to Parliament, as previous Secretaries of State, the Prime Minister and previous Prime Ministers have been.
Opposition Members should cast their minds back to the 1970s, the most recent period when Labour was in power. As I recall--I am sure that Opposition Members will attempt to correct me if they think that I am wrong--the Labour party at that time did not have a majority in England. As I recall, the Prime Minister of the day, now Lord Callaghan, represented a Welsh seat. I do not recall Labour Members saying that Lord Callaghan was not accountable to the people of England.
I pose another question to the hon. Member for Cardiff, West and his right hon. and hon. Friends. The Opposition Chief Whip is now in the Chamber, and he will be interested in his hon. Friend's remark. The hon. Member for Cardiff, West asserted that, were there to be a Labour Government after the next general election, the next Secretary of State for Wales would definitely be a Welshman. The hon. Gentleman clearly has influence in high places.
The point I put to him is this. What will happen if a Welshman is not elected to the shadow Cabinet or to--[Hon. Members: "There will be."] What if there is not? Will a Labour Prime Minister then appoint a Welshman who--
Mr. Richards:
I am delighted that decisions have already been delegated by the Labour leader.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has carefully costed the Welsh Assembly in its first year and has estimated the figure at £52 million, with a recurring cost of £28 million. As the Labour party has not been in government for such a long time, I should perhaps tell Labour Members what £28 million would buy each year. It would buy a district general hospital every year, if there were no Welsh Assembly.
I have been fascinated to hear that the Labour party is united on the issue of an assembly. Perhaps the hon. Member for Cardiff, West could explain to me why his hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Dr. Marek) supported Plaid Cymru's ten-minute Bill on the governance of Wales yesterday, when his right hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams) opposed it.
Mr. Morgan:
Perhaps the Minister could tell us whether he agrees with the estimate of the previous Secretary of State for Wales that a Welsh Assembly would cost £124 million, or with the estimate of the present Secretary of State, who is also his boss, who says that it will cost only £52 million. Which of them is right?
Mr. Richards:
I recall that Mr. Neil Kinnock, who was opposed to a Welsh Assembly at one time, estimated in the 1970s that the cost would be £20 million.
On the issue of unity, is the hon. Member for Cardiff, West telling us that the views of the hon. Members for Pontypridd (Dr. Howells) and for Blaenau Gwent(Mr. Smith) are shared--or not shared--by him or his right hon. and hon. Friends? [Interruption.] The basic calculations by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) are the same as those of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State in terms of capital and running costs, except that my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham looked at some of the cost implications of Labour's policy. I thought that he was conservative in what he said about the costs.
I now move on to a far more serious issue--the Sea Empress disaster, which was raised by the hon. Members for Cardiff, West and for Pembroke (Mr. Ainger), and by many others. The hon. Member for Pembroke thanked various individuals and groups for their hard work, and we wish to be associated with those remarks.
I understand the concerns of the right hon. Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) and the hon. Members for Carmarthen (Mr. Williams), for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North (Mr. Dafis), and for Gower(Mr. Wardell) and their constituents. Obviously, I know that part of the world very well, having been brought up there, and I enjoyed the facilities and beaches. On that issue, there is clearly no disagreement at all.
The hon. Members for Cardiff, West and for Pembroke said that local expertise was neglected in Milford Haven. Any evidence of that will be fully considered in the independent investigation. [Interruption.] Opposition Members may shake their heads. Unlike them, I want to wait for the outcome of the inquiry instead of reaching conclusions based on imperfect information. The marine accidents investigation branch was set up by an Act of Parliament. Contrary to what Opposition Members said, that was how the House wanted such incidents to be investigated.
The branch's inspector reports directly to the Secretary of State for Transport, and he is appointed to be independent. That is his job. He can criticise anyone at all
involved in either the accident or the salvage operation. The arrangements are parallel to those for the air accidents investigation branch, which conducts independent inquiries into air accidents and is highly regarded.
Mr. Richards:
I will not gave way. I do not have much time, and I want to raise many serious points.
The hon. Member for Cardiff, West also raised the issue of accident and emergency beds, and referred to the transfer of six patients from Cardiff Royal infirmary to the Heath hospital in the middle of the night. I was naturally concerned about the hon. Gentleman's remarks. Of course, such decisions are taken by local hospital managers. Since the hon. Gentleman has raised the issue, I will certainly look into it and reply to him. The alleged incidents to which he referred are partly a justification for having one single accident and emergency unit in University hospital Wales.
On accident and emergency beds in general, the key issue is that hospitals--we have obviously had many discussions with trust and health authorities on the matter--should not turn patients away unless all beds other than child and maternity beds are full. That is in line with the action plan agreed by national health service chief executives, to minimise the risk of hospitals closing for short periods due to peak demands for emergency medical admissions.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Conwy(Sir W. Roberts) invited us to glance into the hereafter. Some of us are nearer to the hereafter than others. I
certainly do not mean that with regard to my right hon. Friend, since one does not know what might happen. My right hon. Friend warned us, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Mr. Sweeney), about the dangers of the European state, which, together with an assembly in Cardiff, would weaken the British state.
My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan went on to enlighten us about why Wales is such a popular place for inward investment. He referred to the Bosch plant near his constituency. One of the reasons why German factories are going to Wales is the flexibility of the work force. When the Labour party was in government 20 years ago, the work force would have been the last reason to go to Wales. The hon. Member for Ogmore(Mr. Powell) reminisced about the 1970s. Clearly his memory on the issue is short and defective.
The hon. Member for Bridgend (Mr. Griffiths) failed to answer my question. In our previous debate on the local government settlement, he said that education was underfunded. If that is what he thinks, he must be able to put a figure on it. Why does he not come clean and tell us what sum should be spent on education? What is it? And how would a Labour Government find it? Would they increase revenue support grant, council tax or--this is what the business men of Wales want to know--the business rate? I suspect that the last of those three is the truth.
The business people of Wales will carefully consider what the hon. Gentleman says about that. I invite him now to tell us quickly by how much education is underfunded, and how the Labour party would--
It being Ten o'clock, the motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
Landfill Tax
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.--[Mr. Knapman.]
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