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11.47 am
Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby): I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell), who has been doggedly pursuing the sinking of the Belgrano for about 14 years. It was a tragic action, which was taken in the public interest of people in this country and the people of Argentina, who, as a direct result of the victory of the British forces in the Falklands, now have democratic government. Many of us would consider that the example that the hon. Gentleman chose of Mr. Ponting might add to the unease we feel about the Bill.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Islwyn(Mr. Touhig) on his speech. He took an extremely measured and sensible approach, and I found it difficult to disagree with the thrust of what he said. I also congratulate him, as a Welshman, on moving the Second reading of the Bill on St. David's day. He may not be aware that many of my ancestors on my grandfather's side came from Risca in his constituency, and if the cold weather had not kept back my daffodils, I should have ripped one out of the garden and worn it this morning.
I rarely attend on Fridays, but this has been an extremely sensible and useful debate--much more interesting than many that one hears in the House, and more useful than many we hold.
Perhaps the hon. Member for Islwyn should have declared a special interest in the debate. I hasten to add that he has no pecuniary interest, but I understand that he has a background in journalism and newspaper
publishing. I do not impugn his motives in any way, but he views the issue from the perspective of a journalist and a newspaper publisher, and I believe that that is germane to the debate.
The Bill before the House is superficially extremely attractive. One can envisage the crusader for justice--the whistleblower--acting in the public interest against the secretive, malicious, bullying and dishonest public servants and companies. The hon. Gentleman referred to a culture that he believes is unduly secretive and protects the incompetent fat cats or bureaucrats. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that illegal or dishonest acts should be brought to the attention of the company concerned, and, if necessary, placed in the public domain.
However, I must strike a contrary note. Although the Bill may have good intentions, it may become a charter for the malicious, those with grudges and the greedy who are looking for rewards from the tabloids. The gentlemen of the press--to whom Private Eye correctly refer occasionally as "the reptiles of the press"--care not what they destroy, and will plead public interest and the public's right to know. The public have a right to know many things, but do they need to know about matters that may undermine legitimate commercial behaviour and confidentiality surrounding many decisions and workings of the state?
The Bill's schedule refers to illegal matters and to the misuse of funds--no one would disagree with that. However, I believe that its case for the abuse of authority is fairly subjective. The Bill refers to miscarriage of justice which, except in the courts, is quite subjective also, as is maladministration. It refers also to danger to the health or safety of any individual or the environment. I can plead in good faith that I believe that many things are damaging to the environment, while others do not consider them to be a problem. Those categories are open to interpretation, and I suggest that the courts would have a field day with them.
I turn to the case of the malicious employee who has been sacked and who then takes his story to the press. As a Member of Parliament--I am sure that most hon. Members have had similar experiences--I have been threatened with exposure in the press, and that has occurred. In 1993, before the hon. Member for Islwyn came to the House, that well-known and respected organ of freedom and champion of public good, The Sun, established "The Sun MPs' Line"--I think that that is what it was called. It invited people to report their Members of Parliament for the mistakes they had made.
The helpline was run by a rather tired and past-it former Army officer. The newspaper was interested in a very sad constituency case involving a woman who had told me that Nigel Lawson and my constituency agent were part of the conspiracy against her. I was named in The Sun as not carrying out my duties as a Member of Parliament. When I was contacted by the gentleman concerned, I told him that he should drop the matter, as it would cause hardship to that woman. My point is that many people will go to the press for all sorts of reasons.
Mr. Peter Luff (Worcester):
My hon. Friend may be interested to know that my experience of the
Mr. Robathan:
The former military officer who was responsible for the helpline dropped the matter when I explained the case to him. My point is that many people go to the press for all sorts of reasons, while claiming that their actions are in the public interest.
Not a day goes by without some unknown person trying to make money out of a story in the press. The Bill states that a case will not be heard if disclosure is made principally for private profit. However, if the whistleblower gains any profit at all, that must be an inducement to others to take a case to the press while claiming that it is in the public interest. That is a very worrying aspect of the Bill. One may ask who is worse in that circumstance. It is probably the reptiles of the press who would publish the story, rather than those who go to them with tittle-tattle, rumour, slurs and innuendo, while perhaps bearing a grudge.
Most disclosures of that kind will be printed, because the press always take the line "publish and be damned". That was probably first said in the public interest, but much of what I read in the newspapers today is certainly not in that category. Does the hon. Gentleman believe that the press always adopt a responsible attitude to such matters? I think not.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-West (Mr. Stern) described clause 8 as "obnoxious". I believe that the courts should have the right to know who has betrayed a confidence, and the right to force a journalist to reveal his sources. It may be in the public interest to know who has betrayed a confidence, even in good faith. The courts have a right to make that decision. While I do not always agree with the judgments of our courts, I must pay them some credit.
We all agree that illegality should be exposed, and I was impressed by the hon. Gentleman's approach to this and to many other aspects. Let us turn to the Official Secrets Act 1989 as an example. I hope that even some Labour Members will accept that not all decisions should be taken in the public domain in a glare of publicity. The hon. Gentleman may not know it, but I am still covered by the Official Secrets Act. Some 10 years ago, I was working in Chelsea--it was a very pleasant occupation--as a staff officer dealing with North Atlantic Treaty Organisation matters during the cold war, when the Soviet Union posed a real threat to NATO and to the west.
It is well known that certain documents were given the charming classification "Cosmic Top Secret"--I always smiled about the connotations with "Star Wars" or "Star Trek". Another category was "Top Secret: UK Eyes Only". Luckily, I can never remember which documents were classified under those categories, so I cannot betray any secrets.
Many issues involved planning to break the law in the lead-up to a war. No material in those categories was malicious, and my conscience was not pricked, but some of it involved illegal deception in order to assist United Kingdom and European security in the face of a real threat. It would have involved some form of fraud.
It could be claimed that that should have been revealed in the public interest--and I could have done so. However, my abiding memory is of the decency, integrity
and honesty behind those plans, and the overriding motivation was the protection of the public interest of all United Kingdom citizens. It was not a matter of a judge saying in court that something was in the public interest. Some of the material would certainly have made a very good feature story in a Sunday supplement. For the record, I must state that there was no actual illegality as far as I can recall.
The Bill could assist people who are covered by the Official Secrets Act and who wish to break their word and the trust that they enjoy, and, for reasons known only to themselves, betray secrets to the press in the public interest. They might tell their superiors that they were unhappy with the situation, and that might be enough to establish that they had acted in good faith.
Mr. Touhig:
The hon. Gentleman is missing the essential point. Anyone who feels that he or she ought to raise a matter that is in the public interest must first follow a proper procedure and take the matter to the organisation concerned, which must be given a chance to rebut the allegation. The Bill is not a licence to run to journalists or newspapers.
Mr. Robathan:
I do not doubt the hon. Gentleman's intentions. In the armed forces, one takes one's unhappiness to one's superior. What happens, however, if the superior dismisses those worries? Does one then run to the press? That is not answered in the Bill.
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