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Mr. Coombs: Planning illegalities, even in an emergency, is more likely to undermine parliamentary democracy than keeping close to the letter of the law.
It would be helpful if it could be confirmed that public interest, not significant malpractice and misconduct, would allow whistleblowers to get away with semi-political opinions about which many of my hon. Friends have spoken. The schedule tries to define
"Misconduct or malpractice constituting public interest disclosure".
1 Mar 1996 : Column 1152
I am slightly concerned about paragraphs (iii) and (v), which deal with "abuse of authority" and "maladministration" respectively. Those terms are subject to a wide interpretation.
That does not mean that I disagree with the Bill, because I understand that the courts already have to take such decisions. However, we all know misguided, but well-meaning, individuals who may have a slightly eccentric turn of mind who come to us and genuinely feel that there has been an example of maladministration or an abuse of authority. They may cause untold damage to organisations--while wrongly relying on the Bill--unless some guidance is given on how far the provisions stretch. It is for that reason that a code of practice with specific examples should be drawn up to supplement the schedule and to give guidance, not only to the courts, but to people who may wish to rely on the Bill if it becomes law.
As I said in my intervention on my hon. Friend the Member for Chingford, unless there is a code of practice, many companies--possibly the public sector--will be damaged by people making disclosures that they think will be protected by the Bill, but are not. Those people will be hurt by their misguided apprehension of what the Bill means, and we will need an enormous amount of case law before the penny finally drops as to the grounds for revealing previously confidential information that the Bill seeks to cover. A code of practice would therefore be extremely useful. That might be discussed if, as I hope, the Bill reaches Committee.
I have similar reservations about clause 8, which I hope will be dropped in Committee. If he has the opportunity to make a winding-up speech, perhaps the hon. Member for Islwyn will give assurances on that matter, which is not integral to the problem that he is trying to solve.
The Government would be unwise to try to block the Bill before it reaches Committee, because it is generally recognised that there is in both the public and private sectors a climate of secrecy that needs puncturing and cannot be justified on the grounds of public interest, the national interest, national security or competitive self-interest in the private sector.
Mr. Chris Davies (Littleborough and Saddleworth):
I warmly welcome the Bill. I am sure that that sentiment is shared by my Liberal Democrat colleagues in the House and outside. I welcome and endorse the sentiments of the hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Mr. Coombs). They were a pleasant contrast with the speeches of some Conservatives Members, who gave the impression that they seek only to nitpick and damn the Bill with faint praise. I hope that they will allow the Bill to receive its Second Reading, so that some of their more detailed and specific criticisms can be considered in Committee.
It could be argued that the Bill represents a small step towards sweeping aside some aspects of secrecy that are deeply embedded in this country, but that would, perhaps, be to go far beyond the reality. As its title aptly suggests, the Bill proposes that the public interest matters more than malpractice, more than covering up the fraudulent behaviour of a colleague and more than a company's embarrassment if it is revealed that it is cutting corners with its safety practices. Those principles should be self-evident to Members of Parliament. Surely we are all here because we want to protect and enhance the public interest. That does not seem to me an especially difficult concept to grasp.
Definitions of what represents the public interest will be a matter of subjective judgment, but, as we have heard, the concept of public interest is already included in statute and addressed as a matter of course by the courts.
It is important for hon. Members to recognise that, for reasons which I shall shortly cover, the Bill would not lead to extensive litigation. Rather, the Bill would help to change the attitudes and culture of organisations. It would encourage them to ask, "Are our actions in the public interest? Would we be embarrassed if our actions were exposed to public gaze?" If the answer to the second question is yes, the knowledge that a law of this kind exists will encourage a change in performance and approach.
For too long, the law has given tacit approval to the corporate or bureaucratic culture which smiles and encourages employees to see no evil, to hear no evil and, above all, to speak no evil, even when they know it exists. The Bill would help to break that approach but, as framed, it is also practical and responsible. Employees would not be able to run off to the authorities or to the press for the fun of it or out of malicious intent. As a first step, they must report their concerns to the employer and only if no action is taken and the malpractice continues may they take the matter a step further.
That seems rational and sensible in theory, but how very different the process would be for a person who tried to put it into practice. People who blow the whistle in circumstances that are covered by the Bill are bound to be rare, and what they reveal may be all the more significant, important and crucial to the public interest because of that.
Imagine the emotional turmoil that must affect an employee of a company or a large organisation who plucks up the courage to tell his employer about his concerns. The hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) gave a clear illustration of what that might involve and of how difficult it might be for an employee to face a hard taskmaster in so doing.
Once an employee has plucked up the courage and addressed his employer, he will at least feel that he has done his duty and his conscience can rest easy. But what if he realises that the malpractice is continuing and that nothing is being done to curb it? The next step, which is to go to another authority, would inevitably imply criticism of the employer or line manager, and that is serious. That step would be a great leap in the dark for the person concerned. It would mean risking career prospects, facing abuse and being put under a range of discreet pressures which no legislation, however well framed, could ever properly prevent.
The term "whistleblower", pejorative and dramatic as it may sometimes sound, will not be welcomed by conscience-racked individuals who find themselves in such situations. They will take the next step perhaps only after months of angst, of doubt, of worry and of sleepless nights spent tossing with concern as they try to determine the next appropriate best step. In very few cases will a person take the next step with a glad heart.
Public interest must take precedence over any misplaced sense of loyalty to an employer who deserves no credit for his actions, but none of us wants to create a nation of sneaks. I am pleased to say that the Bill will not do that. It encourages responsible behaviour. Loyalty to an employer is good, loyalty to truth and the wider public interest is better--and general recognition of that principle will improve the attitudes and performance of every organisation in the country.
Mr. Peter Luff (Worcester):
It is often said--perhaps rather unkindly--of my hon. Friends in the Whips Office that they are anxious for colleagues not to listen to arguments that are made during debate for fear that doing so might change their view.
I have a confession to make. When I came here, I was sceptical about the Bill, but I have become a supporter during the debate, although I continue to have reservations, and I believe that it will need careful scrutiny in Committee to ensure that those reservations are fully addressed. My heart has claimed victory over my head, and I pay tribute to all those whose persuasive speeches brought about that change of heart.
It is a curious counterbalance to have on Friday a debate about secrecy, when, arguably, Monday's debate on the Scott report was about another aspect of secrecy.
I became rather worried as I heard the hon. Member for Islwyn (Mr. Touhig), introducing the debate, criticising and mocking tell-tales. I was thinking at the time that loyalty was worth while, and that he was mocking loyalty. That judgment was harsh and wrong, and I apologise even for reaching it privately at that stage.
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