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1.39 pm
Mr. David Jamieson (Plymouth, Devonport): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn(Mr. Touhig) on securing a high place in the ballot and
on the way in which he presented the Bill. My hon. Friend has provided us with an example of the careful and measured approach that can be taken in introducing a private Member's Bill. I hope that on that basis it will command the support of right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House.
I am aware of the difficulties in presenting a Bill, because I was successful in having a private Member's Bill enacted last year. I can assure my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn that, once he has been through the entire process, he may participate in the ballot next year while silently praying that he does not secure a high place in it.
I wish only to clarify one or two matters that are related to the Herald of Free Enterprise tragedy in 1987 and to raise one other case.
The Bill seeks to lift the burden on employees and other people in similar circumstances when there is a conflict between the narrow interests of an employer and the wider public interest. I am pleased that the Bill would rule out any malicious claims. Any claims would have to be made in good faith. The Bill would assist greatly people such as Joy Cawthorne, who had to search her conscience as she encountered a huge moral dilemma. In the face of wrongdoing, was she to break the loyalty that she felt to her employer? Was she to be silent and put other people at risk by turning a blind eye to what was clear wrongdoing?
I learned during the passage of the Bill which I introduced last year that the whistleblower needs the ability to draw attention to the wrongdoing--I am talking of an allegation made in good faith--without fear of reprisal and, secondly, needs someone who can take action following the claim. If there is no one in the organisation who can take action and the necessary systems are not in place, there is a need for the whistleblower to have protection when making a statement outside the area of employment.
There was the appalling tragedy of the Herald of Free Enterprise on 6 March at Zeebrugge harbour. We know that 188 lives were lost--150 passengers and 38 crew. It was well known following Mr. Justice Sheen's inquiry that the ship capsized because it put out with the bow doors open. The then Secretary of State stated clearly that it was the failure of the company to take note of safety measures that caused the ship to go down. But on 24 July, he said:
Effectively, the company ignored warnings from the masters and from the joint committees that existed on each ship, which had a remit to consider safety matters. Crew members were predicting that a disaster would take place because of shortcomings in safety measures.
Last Wednesday week, the hon. Member for Dover(Mr. Shaw), who represented Dover when the Sheen report was made public, sadly tried to rewrite the history of the Zeebrugge disaster. I gave the hon. Gentleman notice that I would raise the matter. Regrettably, on
21 February, he said that there was one simple, basic reason why the ship went down. He referred to alcoholism among certain members of the crew. He said:
His allegations, unlike many of those made by whistleblowers, were made under the privilege of the House.
It is sad that his statements were entirely untrue and without foundation. Nowhere in the Sheen report and nowhere in the Secretary of State's statement was there any reference to alcohol or unions having caused the ship to go down. The hon. Gentleman's comments were cruel, bearing in mind that some of his constituents were crew members. They were the people who warned that the disaster could happen. The hon. Gentleman has accused them of being alcoholics. He was talking about people who either fought bravely and lost their lives or who suffered long-term psychological damage by being involved in an appalling tragedy.
In response to my early-day motion 522, which condemned the hon. Gentleman's unwarranted and distressing comments, an amendment was tabled admitting that only one crew member admitted having a drink. That is a long way from rampant alcoholism having caused the ship to go down.
With the ninth anniversary of the disaster approaching next Wednesday, I hope that, on mature reflection, the hon. Member for Dover will reconsider his comments and withdraw them and apologise, particularly to the crew who tried to blow the whistle to save the lives of the people who were killed in that tragedy. Parliamentary democracy is not served by bogus attempts to reveal wrongdoing under privilege of the House.
The other case to which I shall refer came to light during the passage of my Bill, which is now the Activity Centres (Young Persons' Safety) Act 1995. It was the most distressing and harrowing case of a whistleblower who made every attempt to do what she thought was right. She predicted, with chilling precision, what would happen if safety measures were not put in place at the St. Albans venture centre in Dorset, back in 1992. In a letter to the managing director, she said:
She goes on to say:
She litters her letter with similar comments. Near the end, addressing the managing director, she says:
Within six months, four of my young constituents died in the Lyme bay tragedy.
In his reply to Joy Cawthorne, the managing director said:
He served 14 months of a three-year sentence for manslaughter. His was the first company found guilty of corporate manslaughter.
That case is vital in the context of this debate, because had Joy Cawthorne still been employed by that company, she would have been very afraid that her actions would have resulted, perhaps, in her sacking, or other things being brought down on her head.
The Minister for Competition and Consumer Affairs (Mr. John M. Taylor):
This has been one of the most interesting debates that I have had the privilege of listening to in the House.
I come to the Dispatch Box aware of the necessary courtesies involved in the Government responding to an important private Member's Bill. I am also aware of the fact that I am bound to fail, because if I tried to address every single argument that has been deployed in the debate, I would assuredly threaten eternity, and I do not believe that those who have good will towards the Bill want me to do that. I can tell the House that I shall not threaten eternity, but part of the price for that is that some hon. Members may feel that I have not addressed everything that was said. I accept that risk.
Our debate began with a lucid presentation by the hon. Member for Islwyn (Mr. Touhig), who was ably supported by my hon. Friend the Member for Chingford (Mr. Duncan Smith). He in turn took some interesting interventions from my hon. Friends the Members for Blaby (Mr. Robathan) and for Bristol, North-West(Mr. Stern). There was further support from the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Mr. Fisher), but my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers) shared a number of anxieties with the House. The hon. Member for Leeds, Central (Mr. Fatchett) supported the Bill, but my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-West developed his reservations.
The hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) revived some of our favourite memories of him, not lightly, I grant, but in the most serious vein. My hon. Friend the Member for Blaby had serious misgivings. The hon. Member for Cannock and Burntwood (Dr. Wright) returned to some themes that he has been working on and maturing over time. He has form, as they say in the criminal world, in these areas of activity. He has been here before--[Interruption.] I did not hear those interventions, but I think that they were probably quite amusing.
My hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Luff) gave the impression that he had come as a sceptic and had become a convert. The hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Mr. Jamieson) made a serious and important contribution to our debate, although it was not the longest. He rightly has the credit for the Activity Centres (Young Persons' Safety) Act 1995 which followed the tragedy that was visited on four of his young constituents; he will always have the credit for that.
The hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon(Mr. Howarth)--I would still like to call him my hon. Friend so I refer to him now as my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon--was as lucid today as he always is. If he had been in his place, I would have assured him on the following point. Hon. Members will appreciate that he spoke about humility and touched on the analogy with Hans Christian Andersen's story about the emperor and the little boy. I wanted to tell him that, when I stand at the Dispatch Box, I am the veritable embodiment of humility. In that spirit, I acknowledge, once again, that I could not answer all the points in this interesting debate without taking far longer than any of the friends of the Bill would want me to take.
I have considerable sympathy with the objectives of the Bill; who could not have? The hon. Member for Islwyn has told the House of the support he has received from interested parties and the debate has shown that that support is reflected by hon. Members. However, although the Government broadly agree with the principles of the Bill, they see considerable difficulties in going down the road of legislation.
Legislation should always be approached with great caution and should not be entered into hastily. It should be a final step to meet an inescapable need. People should be encouraged to put their own houses in order without the constraint of statute, and that is especially true when it comes to employers running businesses. Only in particular and extreme circumstances where that approach does not work should legislation be considered.
There has been much discussion about whether the Bill is or is not deregulatory. It may be worth repeating the Government's position on regulation, the objectives behind the deregulation initiative and the tools that we are using to achieve those objectives. We are not opposed to regulation; well-thought-out and sensibly enforced regulations, limited in scope to what is truly necessary, are consistent with an open, innovative and growing business community. Bad regulation has the opposite effect, as it stands in the way of innovation, investment and jobs. Our deregulation objective is to reduce the burden of existing legislation and paperwork, and to minimise the burden of new legislation.
The Government's approach to good legislation is based on the three principles of the deregulation task force. The first is proportionality, which means that the benefits of any measure must outweigh the costs it imposes. The second is "think small first": regulations that cover small firms must ensure that they are able to comply with them. The third is goal-based regulation: the aim is to specify the provision's objective and to leave as much flexibility as possible, so that businesses have the freedom to comply in the way that best meets their individual circumstances.
The new system is more rigorous. It requires the Government's compliance cost assessment requirements to be undertaken. They ensure that all proposed regulations that affect businesses are thoroughly costed. Ministers will consider the compliance cost assessments personally and certify that the balance between cost and benefit has been appropriately struck. Special consideration must be given to the Bill's effects on small firms that do not have the resources or time to deal with elaborate measures.
In accordance with those principles, employment protection legislation sets out a minimum necessary framework of protection, on which employers can build as suits their circumstances. That framework already provides protection for individuals that the Bill aims to cover. The protections that exist in law include the civil service and health service codes, the rules relating to pension trustees and activity centres, which I have already mentioned, the body of health and safety legislation and civil law, not least in its applications to unfair and wrongful dismissals.
The two-year service requirement for most unfair dismissal complaints is necessary to ensure that unfair dismissal provisions do not weigh too heavily on business. We recognise, however, that some circumstances are so crucial that the two-year period should not apply. Some of those do not concern our debate. Two exceptions, however, relate directly to whistleblowing. They show that we are always ready to consider sympathetically the case for specific protection where that is justified.
The first exception is health and safety. Hon. Members have mentioned the Piper Alpha tragedy. It led to the provision of strong protection for employees working on oil rigs through the Offshore Safety (Protection Against Victimisation) Act 1992. That protection was enhanced and extended to people working onshore from August 1993. The provisions make it automatically unfair to dismiss, to select for redundancy or to subject to any other detriment any employees, regardless of their length of service, hours of work or age, in particular circumstances.
Similar protection will apply from next year to employee pension trustees to ensure that they feel free to undertake their duties without fear of reprisals. Hon. Members have mentioned the Maxwell case. Those existing measures show the Government's preferred approach to whistleblowing. Those protections deal properly with the worst cases that may be relevant to the Bill. They build on the Government's belief that internal procedures are the best way of dealing with such problems and that employees should always follow those procedures before considering whether to breach their duty of confidence by talking to the press.
Paragraph 114 of the first Nolan report states:
"The report draws attention to the failures on behalf of the management of the company to give attention to warnings from the masters of the vessels in their fleet or suggestions of ways of improving safety."---[Official Report, 24 July 1987; Vol. 120, c.678 .]
"In reality, the officers were not in control--extreme left-wing trade unionists were in control of the ship."--[Official Report,21 February 1996; Vol. 272, c.291.]
"There is most definitely not one person here on this site technically qualified to instruct . . . As for sending out people on oversized classes on the water, I really do feel you are cutting it fine".
"At present we are walking a fine line between 'getting away with it' and having a very serious incident."
"We feel that you at head office could sort out some of these for us . . . we think you should have a careful look at your standards of safety. Otherwise you might find yourselves trying to explain why someone's son or daughter will not be coming home.
Nobody wishes or wants that to happen, but it will sooner or later."
"You can be assured that we are concerned that any problems that are identified are resolved as quickly as possible."
1 Mar 1996 : Column 1167
"On the other hand, we would not wish to encourage vexatious or irresponsible complaints which undermine public confidence in institutions without due cause. We believe"--
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