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9.41 pm
Mr. Bowis: With the leave of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker. As hon. Members on both sides of the House have said, this has been a good debate. The hon. Member for Darlington (Mr. Milburn) referred to it as "consensual". I presume that that means that it was a debate between consenting adults, which is probably right. There has been a great deal of agreement about the quality and worth of the measure.
There have been well-deserved tributes to my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelsea (Sir N. Scott) as the father of the independent living fund, so "Our Father, who art behind me" is the spirit of the measure, which is in that tradition. The ILF had tighter eligibility criteria than those in the Bill, and was more limited in the scope of the services involved. However, it was the Bill's forerunner, and I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend's work with disabled people, and especially on the ILF.
I gladly accept the universal welcome for the Bill. The debate centred on three things: the regulations, the guidance and the practical support that can be given as the Bill is implemented. In answer to an earlier question, I should say that we are talking about negative resolution procedures at subsequent stages.
The regulations have focused on several issues. The eligibility criteria have been central. The Bill was a response to younger physically disabled people who said that it would greatly enhance their working lives. That is where we started from, and why we have come from that direction. I remember talking to the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Howarth) when we were considering what to do. He urged us to be cautious and careful, and do it in steps, and we have sought to do that.
Some local authorities have urged us to do it in stages, although there has been great enthusiasm for the all-in-one-go approach in the House tonight. That is why we heard the Kemptown warning, if I may call it that, from my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Sir A. Bowden): whatever the House agrees to, there will be pressure on local authorities to bring it in as quickly as possible for people who are eligible. It is a question of which stages at what time; where we go and how soon.
When I opened the debate, I said that I was listening, and that I wanted to hear from hon. Members, as we have heard from people responding to our consultation paper.
Today, hon. Members have put forward their views about the learning disability extension. We made it clear that we would listen to their views very carefully, as we did in another place. Hon. Members referred to physically disabled people over the age of 65--and not just those who turned 65 having qualified previously. I hear their messages, and we will take them into account, together with all other views.
Hon. Members raised questions about the charging system. I emphasise that the discretionary charging system is exactly the same as that for community care services. There should be no difference between the two systems, and I hope that I have reassured hon. Members in that regard.
Mr. Alan Howarth:
Does the Minister accept that we are not really comparing like with like? While we want to see a level playing field in that respect, there is a difference between enabling the users of direct payments to be good employers and to meet that range of costs, and charging them for the services that are provided directly by social services. They are not the same things, and the Minister will not achieve his objective easily.
Mr. Bowis:
I understand the hon. Gentleman's point, and I shall return to it at a later stage. It would be quite wrong for someone to be charged for services provided under the discretionary charging system if someone who received the same services through the direct payment scheme were free of those charges. We want to ensure that there is a level playing field.
Reference was made to respite and the four-week period that is mentioned in the consultation paper. We are seeking views about that period, but, whatever figure is chosen, there is nothing to stop local authorities continuing to provide respite care.
Hon. Members have discussed the issue of relatives and lodgers, and there is general agreement that close relatives should be excluded under the legislation. However, there is a question as to where discretion should fall beyond them. I am conscious that we should not seek to pay relatives for emergency provision, as that is something that most relatives would be pleased to provide.
We have discussed guidance and practical support for local authorities and payees, including how to assess payments, how to guide people on legal requirements, guidance to users, and how to employ people. Those issues will be encompassed in guidelines. As to the request for the Disablement Income Group and the British Council of Organisations of Disabled People to be involved in that process, I confirm that Pauline Thompson and Jane Campbell served on the technical advisory group, and I assure hon. Members that they will continue to provide advice.
I repeat that existing schemes are not affected by the measure. If authorities decide to proceed with a scheme, that is entirely their decision. Consultation is central to
the process. We released the consultation paper as soon as possible after publishing the Bill, so that people would be aware of the sorts of issues that will be debated when the regulations come before Parliament. I think that has helped to focus the debate, and no doubt it will help to focus consideration of the Bill in its later stages.
I have been asked to put the responses in the Library, and I am happy to confirm that I shall do so. I hope that that will prove helpful. The measure extends choice, dignity and independence to disabled people.
Mr. Tom Clarke:
We are very grateful to the Minister for making that commitment. Can he tell us when those responses will be available?
Mr. Bowis:
I have not yet seen them myself. I shall need a short time in which to receive the responses and have them analysed, and then we shall place them in the Library.
Today we have had the beatification of Chelsea and, the absolution of Mid-Kent, and I now look forward to the Committee stage of the Bill and whatever it may bring.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee, pursuant to Standing OrderNo. 61 (Committal of Bills).
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris):
With permission, I shall put together the motions relating to delegated legislation.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 101(6) (Standing Committees on Delegated Legislation),
Question agreed to.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
We now turn to motion No. 5 on the school premises regulations. Not moved.
That the draft Hydrographic Office Trading Fund Order 1996, which was laid before this House on 1st February, be approved.
That the draft Meteorological Office Trading Fund Order 1996, which was laid before this House on 21st February, be approved.--[Mr. Bates].
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