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Ms Corston: The Minister will probably know that, some years ago, my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley), when on the Opposition Front Bench, asked the then Chancellor of the Exchequer about the tax rates that the Government proposed to introduce in the Budget, which was weeks away.
My right hon. Friend was told by the then Chancellor that that was a stupid question. He said, in effect, "How can I possibly know what tax rates will be proposed in a
few weeks time?" If that holds true, why do Ministers make themselves so ridiculous by prating on about what we, the Opposition, would do? We are here to oppose the Government and to challenge their policies. Fancy asking what an Opposition will be doing when in government14 months hence.
Mrs. Browning:
Fancy asking the Opposition what they would do. It was only a short while ago that figures were bandied about. I can remember clearly the TUC coming up with a figure--I think that it was £5.10. The moment that the TUC started to pop its head up above the parapet--
Mrs. Browning:
If I am wrong, the hon. Lady must know the right figure. I shall gladly give way to her if she says that I have quoted the wrong figure. She must know the right figure. I shall give way if she will give me the right figure.
Mrs. Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley):
Let me do that on behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey(Ms Eagle). We do not give the Government any figures, because they have fiddled every figure we have produced. In the lead-up to the general election, the Government fiddled all the figures. That was done by the Department that I was shadowing before the election. Figures were distorted beyond all recognition. The figure that the Minister has attributed to the TUC is incorrect. It was £4.15, not £5.10.
Mrs. Browning:
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for at least exposing a figure. Whatever the figure is, Joe Bloggs in my constituency, perhaps employing 10 or 12 people--
Ms Eagle:
Will the Minister give way?
Mrs. Browning:
No. I will not give way, because I am responding to an intervention.
As I was saying, Joe Bloggs in my constituency may be employing 10 or 12 people. If we were to say what the minimum wage would be--we are not that far away from a general election--he would be able to tell me, if he had to apply that wage to his staff payroll, how many people he would have to sack and how many people he would not employ the following year whom he had planned to employ. He might, of course, say, "That is all right.We can afford to pay that."
Labour Members and the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mrs. Maddock), a Liberal Democrat Member--I am a west country Member, representing part of an area where wages are lower than average within the United Kingdom--must understand that a minimum wage would be the kiss of death. I have heard everything that Opposition Members have said about women's wages. We want, of course, to see that people are paid a fair wage, but it is not the Government's role to introduce a minimum wage. Such a requirement would kill jobs, and the potential for more jobs, at a time when unemployment is consistently declining and is comparing favourably with unemployment levels elsewhere.
At present, seven European countries have a minimum wage requirement. Two examples are France and Spain. They have shown us what a minimum wage does for jobs.
There are job losses for both women and men. If we are not to talk about figures in the United Kingdom, let us bear in mind what has happened in the countries where there is a minimum wage. That will enable us to recognise the reality of the policy. We see soaring unemployment, especially in low-wage sectors. That has an effect on young people, who do not command high salaries. They are at the bottom level. Youth unemployment, especially in Spain and France, which have the disgraceful policy of a minimum wage, is soaring.
Mrs. Lait:
The minimum wage in France is £200 a week. Is my hon. Friend aware that the French Government are now insisting that British travel firms that employ British chalet girls and tour guides and pay on average £120 a week should pay the French statutory minimum wage? Does she agree that chalet girls and tour guides will lose their jobs, and that British travel companies will go bust?
Mrs. Browning:
My hon. Friend has summed the matter up.
Labour talked about larger companies that voluntarily enter into employment packages and agreements with their employees on matters such as paternity rights. The hon. Member for Stockport seemed to be confused about why we should think that that was all right, but not want to introduce it on a statutory basis. It is simple: if companies feel that they can voluntarily put together an employment package covering matters such as paternity rights without jeopardising jobs, of course we support it.
To introduce such a policy on a statutory basis, so that it would hit companies of all sizes in all regions, would not only kill jobs, but would especially penalise women's jobs. It would cause artificial discrimination, which would especially affect women of child-bearing age.
Ms Eagle:
The hon. Lady's argument would render wrong the Equal Pay Act 1970. The arguments used against the Act while it was being put on the statute book by Barbara Castle were precisely those that the Minister uses against the minimum wage: that, if women had the right to equal pay, it would destroy their jobs, because their wages would have to rise. Exactly the opposite has happened. More women are in the labour force than ever before. Is there not an inconsistency?
Mrs. Browning:
No. There are more jobs, but the hon. Lady is wrong to make that comparison. If men apply for the same jobs as women, we want equal pay, but we do not want jobs to be destroyed by a statutory minimum wage that would hit companies of all sizes. One of our great strengths, and the reason why we have declining unemployment, is that we do not have those non-wage labour costs. My hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye (Mrs. Lait) gave the example of chalet maids in France.
Other European countries that are in competition with Britain would like us to embrace such a package, because they realise that, having signed up to it, they are uncompetitive with us. They are trying to persuade us to make our companies uncompetitive. The Labour and Liberal parties think that it is a jolly good idea. I do not, and nor do the Government. That is my last word on the minimum wage.
Both at home and abroad, much has been achieved, but nobody is resting on their laurels. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Education and Employment will talk not only to non-governmental organisations but to Government Departments and Ministers in every Department, to make sure that equality for women is part of the psyche of every Government Minister and Department.
In the "Global Platform for Action", that is called mainstreaming, and its implementation is regarded as desirable. We agree, and we feel that it is far better to mainstream through Government Departments, raise awareness and put it into action, than to have women regarded as a tiny body of people for whom special concessions have to be made, who stand out in the House as a poor Cinderella group.
Much has been said about women in the House; we want more of them in the House. The Labour party has argued that it has got it right by breaking its own rules to get more women on their list. The hon. Member for Christchurch said that proportional representation would help get women in. There are many reasons why women do not come into the House; there is no one simple solution. Many of the views put forward by hon. Members on both sides of the House are relevant.
We have had a good debate, and I would like to mention some speeches. My hon. Friend the Member for Batley and Spen (Mrs. Peacock), as she usually does in these debates, made a substantial contribution, which represented business women in particular. My hon. Friend the Member for Billericay (Mrs. Gorman) raised, in her inimitable way, several issues. [Hon. Members: "Where is she?"] I am not sure where she is. She said that nothing would change until men had babies.
Mr. Paul Flynn (Newport, West):
It will be a long wait.
Mrs. Browning:
Yes, I suspect that we will have a very long wait for that. We cannot afford to wait that long, although that would be one of the most equal opportunities that men could have in life. I am sorry that we cannot bring it forward more quickly.
In a somewhat wider area of discussion, some hon. Members not only took the debate along the road of women's equality, but discussed the social effects of women's responsibilities, especially in the home and in child raising. There were thoughtful contributions by my hon. Friends the Members for Mid-Kent (Mr. Rowe) and for South-West Cambridgeshire (Sir A. Grant), and, in perhaps the one of the most telling equal opportunity contributions of the evening, by my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Mr. Merchant), who flagged up something that is at the heart of our discussion.
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