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Mr. Alun Michael (Cardiff, South and Penarth): With respect, the Leader of the House quibbles on the wrong point. Everyone understands that the Standing Orders are a matter for the decision of the House, but the suggestion was that there should be proper discussion and consultation by the Secretary of State in the Welsh Grand Committee before proposals were brought to the Floor of the House. It is a sign of the generosity of my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies), Labour Members and other Opposition Members that we were prepared to meet the Secretary of State in the Welsh parliamentary party and to suggest a proper and sensible debate, and did not reject his right to make suggestions in the first place.
Mr. Newton: Given that we have been accused of resisting debate or attempting to muzzle Members of Parliament representing Wales, I must make the point that all members of the Welsh Grand Committee, by definition, are Members of the House. There is nothing to prevent any Member who wishes to do so from seeking to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in the debate that I hope will take place. We have provided in the business motion, although some of the time for debate has now been consumed by the debate on that motion, significantly more time than would normally be provided for debate on such matters, precisely in order to enable Welsh Members to have a proper debate.
I believe that we should accept the business motion and get on with that debate.
Question put:--
The House divided: Ayes 162, Noes 61.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly agreed to.
Resolved,
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Geoffrey Lofthouse):
Before I call the Minister to move the motion on Welsh business, I should say that debate will take place jointly on the motion and on the various amendments selected by Madam Speaker. The amendments will be moved formally at 10 pm.
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Tony Newton):
I beg to move, That--
AYES
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)
Amess, David
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baldry, Tony
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Bellingham, Henry
Body, Sir Richard
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Booth, Hartley
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bowis, John
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Sir Graham
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Ian (South Dorset)
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butterfill, John
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln)
Chapman, Sir Sydney
Clappison, James
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coe, Sebastian
Congdon, David
Conway, Derek
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John
Couchman, James
Cran, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Dicks, Terry
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Dover, Den
Duncan-Smith, Iain
Dunn, Bob
Durant, Sir Anthony
Dykes, Hugh
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Evennett, David
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Forman, Nigel
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Fox, Rt Hon Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
French, Douglas
Gill, Christopher
Gillan, Cheryl
Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Hague, Rt Hon William
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archibald
Hampson, Dr Keith
Hanley, Rt Hon Jeremy
Hargreaves, Andrew
Harris, David
Haselhurst, Sir Alan
Hawkins, Nick
Hawksley, Warren
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David
Hendry, Charles
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael
Hicks, Robert
Hill, James (Southampton Test)
Horam, John
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Hunter, Andrew
Jack, Michael
Jenkin, Bernard
Jessel, Toby
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Jones, Robert B (W Hertfdshr)
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
Key, Robert
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Rt Hon Greg (Derby N)
Kynoch, George (Kincardine)
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Legg, Barry
Lidington, David
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Lord, Michael
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
MacKay, Andrew
Maclean, Rt Hon David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Maitland, Lady Olga
Malone, Gerald
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Moate, Sir Roger
Neubert, Sir Michael
Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Norris, Steve
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Portillo, Rt Hon Michael
Richards, Rod
Riddick, Graham
Robathan, Andrew
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela
Sackville, Tom
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian
Skeet, Sir Trevor
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Soames, Nicholas
Spencer, Sir Derek
Spring, Richard
Sproat, Iain
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Streeter, Gary
Sweeney, Walter
Sykes, John
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Trend, Michael
Waldegrave, Rt Hon William
Walden, George
Waller, Gary
Ward, John
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel
Watts, John
Wells, Bowen
Whittingdale, John
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Wolfson, Mark
Wood, Timothy
Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Mr. Roger Knapman and
Mr. Michael Bates.
NOES
Ainger, Nick
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)
Barron, Kevin
Battle, John
Bennett, Andrew F
Benton, Joe
Bermingham, Gerald
Bradley, Keith
Brown, N (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)
Burden, Richard
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Campbell-Savours, D N
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Corston, Jean
Cousins, Jim
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)
Dafis, Cynog
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)
Dewar, Donald
Dixon, Don
Dowd, Jim
Fisher, Mark
Flynn, Paul
Fyfe, Maria
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Hall, Mike
Hanson, David
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hoyle, Doug
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hutton, John
Ingram, Adam
Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Mon)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW)
Llwyd, Elfyn
Mackinlay, Andrew
McWilliam, John
Mahon, Alice
Marek, Dr John
Martin, Michael J (Springburn)
Michael, Alun
Morgan, Rhodri
Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Pike, Peter L
Pope, Greg
Prentice, Bridget (Lew'm E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Rowlands, Ted
Skinner, Dennis
Soley, Clive
Spearing, Nigel
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Timms, Stephen
Wicks, Malcolm
Wigley, Dafydd
Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W)
Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Mr. Jon Owen Jones and
Mr. Peter Hain.
That, at this day's sitting--
(1) the Speaker shall put the Questions necessary to dispose of proceedings on the Motion in the name of Mr. Tony Newton relating to Welsh Business not later than Ten o'clock, and such Questions shall include the Questions on any amendments to the said Motion which she may have selected and which may then be moved; and
(2) Standing Order No. 52 (Consideration of estimates) shall apply with the insertion in line 41, after the words 'At Ten o'clock', of the words 'or immediately after the previous business has been disposed of, whichever is the later'.
7.22 pm
(1) Standing Order No. 98 (Welsh Grand Committee) shall be repealed and Standing Orders A to G below shall have effect;
(2) Standing Order No. 87 (Attendance of law officers and ministers in standing committees) shall be amended, in line 9, after "business))", by inserting "or a motion in the Welsh Grand Committee under Standing Order (Welsh Grand Committee (composition and business))";
(3) Standing Order No. 89 (Procedure in standing committees) shall be amended, in line 3, after "business))", by inserting "Standing Order (Welsh Grand Committee (sittings))"; and
(4) other Standing Orders shall have effect subject to the foregoing provisions of this Order.
A. Welsh Grand Committee (composition and business)
(1) There shall be a standing committee called the Welsh Grand Committee, which shall consist of all Members representing Welsh constituencies, together with not more than five other Members nominated by the Committee of Selection, which shall have power from time to time to discharge the Members so nominated by it and to appoint others in substitution for those discharged.
(2) The business of the committee shall include--
(a) questions tabled in accordance with Standing Order B (Welsh Grand Committee (questions for oral answer));
(b) short debates held in accordance with Standing Order C (Welsh Grand Committee (short debates));
(c) ministerial statements proceeded with under Standing Order D (Welsh Grand Committee (ministerial statements));
(d) Bills referred to it in accordance with Standing Order E (Welsh Grand Committee (Bills));
(e) such specified matters relating exclusively to Wales as may be referred to it in accordance with Standing Order F (Welsh Grand Committee (matters relating exclusively to Wales)); and
(f) motions for the adjournment of the committee, made under paragraph (5) of Standing Order G (Welsh Grand Committee (sittings)).
(3) Any Minister of the Crown, being a Member of the House, though not a member of the committee, may take part in the deliberations of the committee and may make a motion, but shall not vote or be counted in the quorum.
B. Welsh Grand Committee (questions for oral answer)
(1) Notices of questions for oral answer in the Welsh Grand Committee by Welsh Office ministers on a day specified in an order made under paragraph (1) of Standing Order G (Welsh Grand Committee (sittings)) may be given by members of the committee in the Table Office.
(2) Notices of questions given under this order shall bear an indication that they are for oral answer in the Welsh Grand Committee.
(3) No more than one notice of a question may be given under this order by any member of the committee for each day specified under paragraph (1) of Standing Order G (Welsh Grand Committee (sittings)) for the taking of questions.
(4) On any day so specified under paragraph (1) of Standing Order G (Welsh Grand Committee (sittings)), questions shall be taken at the commencement of the sitting; no such question shall be taken later than half an hour after the commencement of the proceedings thereon; and replies to questions not reached shall be printed with the Official Report of the committee's debates for that day.
(5) Notices of questions under this order may be given 10 sitting days before that on which an answer is desired:
Provided that when it is proposed that the House shall adjourn for a period of fewer than four days, any day during that period (other than a Saturday or a Sunday) shall be counted as a sitting day for the purposes of the calculation made under this paragraph.
C. Welsh Grand Committee (short debates)
(1) Notices of subjects to be raised in short debates in the Welsh Grand Committee, on a day specified in an order made under paragraph (1) of Standing Order G (Welsh Grand Committee (sittings)), may be given by members of the committee in the Table Office.
(2) Subjects of which notice is given under paragraph (1) of this order must relate to Wales.
(3) Not more than one notice of a subject may be given under this order by any member of the committee for each day specified under paragraph (1) of Standing Order G (Welsh Grand Committee (sittings)) for the holding of short debates.
(4) On any day so specified such debates shall be held at the commencement of the sitting or, if the order under paragraph (1) specifies also the taking of questions on that day, immediately after questions.
(5)(a) No Member except the Minister of the Crown replying to the debate shall be called to speak later than half an hour after the commencement of the first such debate.
(b) The Member who gave notice of the subject and the Minister of the Crown replying to the debate may each speak for five minutes. Other Members may speak for three minutes.
(c) The chairman may direct any Member who exceeds the limits in sub-paragraph (b) to resume his seat forthwith.
(6) Notice of subjects under this order may be given 10 sitting days before that on which they are sought to be raised:
Provided that when it is proposed that the House shall adjourn for a period of fewer than four days, any day during that period (other than a Saturday or a Sunday) shall be counted as a sitting day for the purposes of the calculation made under this paragraph.
D. Welsh Grand Committee (ministerial statements)
(1) The chairman of the Welsh Grand Committee may permit a Minister of the Crown, whether or not a Member of the House, to make a statement, of which prior notice has been given to him, on a matter relating to Wales, and to answer questions thereon put by members of the committee.
(2) Ministerial statements may be made--
(a) at the commencement of a sitting; or
(b) if questions are taken, immediately after the conclusion of proceedings thereon; or
(c) if short debates are held, immediately after the conclusion of those proceedings.
(3) Proceedings under this order shall be brought to a conclusion at the discretion of the chairman.
(4) A Minister of the Crown making a statement under paragraph (1) of this order, who is not a Member of the House, may not do so from the body of the committee; and shall not vote, make any motion or be counted in the quorum.
E. Welsh Grand Committee (Bills)
(1) A motion, of which at least 10 days' notice has been given, may be made by a Minister of the Crown at the commencement of public business, that a public Bill be referred to the Welsh Grand Committee, and the question thereupon shall be put forthwith; and
Provided that no such notice shall be given until the Bill has been printed and delivered to the Vote Office.
(2) The committee shall report to the House either that it recommends that the Bill ought to be read a second time or that it recommends that the Bill ought not to be read a second time, and in the latter case it shall have power to state its reasons for so recommending.
(3) Upon a motion being made for the second reading of a Bill reported from the committee, the question thereon shall be put forthwith.
F. Welsh Grand Committee (matters relating exclusively to Wales)
(1) A motion may be made by a Minister of the Crown at the commencement of public business to the effect that a specified matter or matters relating exclusively to Wales be referred to the Welsh Grand Committee for its consideration, and the question thereon shall be put forthwith.
(2) If such a motion be agreed to, the committee shall consider the matter or matters referred to it and shall report only that it has considered the said matter or matters.
G. Welsh Grand Committee (sittings)
(1) A motion may be made by a Minister of the Crown providing (or varying previous provision) for the Welsh Grand Committee--
(a) to sit on specified days at a specified place in Wales, the sitting commencing, and proceedings being interrupted, at such hours as shall be specified;
(b) to sit on other specified days at Westminster at half-past 10 o'clock, or at half-past 10 o'clock and between4 o'clock and 6 o'clock;
(c) to take questions under Standing Order B (Welsh Grand Committee (questions for oral answer)) on certain of the days specified under paragraph (a) or paragraph (b) above; and
(d) to hold short debates under Standing Order C (Welsh Grand Committee (short debates)) on certain of the days so specified;
(e) to consider specified Bills which shall have been referred to it under Standing Order E (Welsh Grand Committee (Bills)) on certain of the days so specified; and
(f) to consider specified matters which shall have been referred to it under Standing Order F (Welsh Grand Committee (matters relating exclusively to Wales) on certain of the days so specified;
and the Speaker shall put forthwith the question on such a motion, which may be decided at any hour, though opposed:
Provided that nothing in this order shall prevent the committee from considering further at a sitting at Westminster business adjourned at a previous sitting in Wales, nor from considering at a sitting in Wales business adjourned at a sitting at Westminster.
(2) The provisions of Standing Order No. 88 (Meetings of standing committees), so far as they relate to the naming of a day in respect of business by the Member appointed chairman and the committee's appointment of future days in respect of business not completed at a sitting, shall not apply to the Welsh Grand Committee.
(3) The chairman shall interrupt proceedings (other than on a motion made under paragraph (5) below) at the time specified in relation to the sitting by an order made under paragraph (1) above or, in the absence of such provision, at one o'clock, subject to paragraph (2) of Standing Order No. 88 (Meetings of standing committees).
(4) At the moment of interruption, proceedings under consideration and not disposed of shall stand adjourned.
(5) After the interruption of proceedings, or on the completion of the business appointed for consideration at that sitting, whichever is the earlier, a motion for the adjournment of the committee may be made by a Minister of the Crown, and, notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order No. 88 (Meetings of standing committees) the chairman shall, not later than half an hour after the motion has been made, adjourn the committee without putting any question; and in respect of business taken under this paragraph, the quorum of the committee shall be three.
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