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Mr. Dafydd Wigley (Caernarfon) rose--
Mr. Newton: I see that the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley) is once again determined to let me get no more than one sentence out at a time.
Mr. Wigley: The Leader of the House will recall that I did not intervene in his last speech.
Mr. Wigley: I am grateful that the right hon. Gentleman acknowledges that. He told the House that the orders put into effect the announcement made by the Secretary of State for Wales before Christmas. Given that he is putting into effect exactly what was announced without taking account of any of the changes that have been discussed since, what was the point of the play that he made earlier of the discussion period? What is the point of pretending that any of the Opposition's points have been taken on board when he is merely putting into practice exactly what was intended three or four months ago?
Mr. Newton: I am reluctant to be drawn into re-running the previous debate, though I acknowledge that the hon. Gentleman was one of the few who did not seek to intervene even in my relatively brief winding-up speech. The sensible course would be to proceed with the debate and no doubt, either in relation to the amendments or in his speech, the hon. Gentleman--who has fixed views on the matter and wants the Welsh Grand Committee to be not a Committee of the Westminster Parliament but a quite different arrangement--will be able to put his views to the House.
The new Standing Order A re-enacts the existing provisions relating to the composition of the Welsh Grand Committee, lists the full range of business with which the Committee will be able to deal and provides for Ministers who represent constituencies in other parts of the United Kingdom to attend meetings and take part in debates.As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales has already told the House--and I assume that this will be welcome in Wales, as it certainly should be--both my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer have indicated that they propose to attend the Committee under that provision.
Standing Order B seeks to add to the opportunities for Welsh Members to question Welsh Office Ministers by providing for an additional Welsh Office Question Time lasting for half an hour at certain meetings of the Welsh Grand Committee. I am never quite sure whether comparisons with Scotland go down well, but that procedure has undoubtedly proved a great success in the Scottish Grand Committee since its introduction a year ago.
Mr. Jon Owen Jones (Cardiff, Central):
The right hon. Gentleman makes a comparison between Wales and Scotland. The previous debate was about how we should make decisions about the Welsh Grand Committee, but when are we going to decide about the Committee changes themselves? Why, after 17 years, have the Government suddenly seen the light and decided to make changes to both the Welsh and Scottish Grand Committees? What has spurred on the Government's interest in changing procedures? What has changed the Government's mind?
Mr. Newton:
Nothing has changed the Government's mind. It is part of our constant search to improve the way in which Parliament does business. When we changed the procedures of the House more generally, in the fashion to which the hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mrs. Taylor) referred--my right hon. Friend the Westmorland and Lonsdale (Mr. Jopling) was present then--and discussed and implemented large parts of the Jopling proposals, no one asked why we did not do it 15 years ago. Equally,I do not recall anyone arguing that in relation to Scottish Standing Orders, the Scottish Grand Committee, the establishment of a Northern Ireland Select Committee or the improvements that we have been making to the way in which legislation is considered. We are simply seeking to improve the way in which the United Kingdom Parliament responds to the changing perceptions and circumstances of the way in which the House and its Committees do their business.
Mr. Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy):
One immediate improvement that the right hon. Gentleman might like to put in train is to allow Welsh to be spoken in the Welsh Grand Committee. A couple of years ago, we had lengthy deliberations on the Welsh Language Act 1993, which culminated in the Government saying that Welsh had equal validity with English. The Government are denying the people of Wales the chance of making the revamped Committee of some relevance to large parts of Wales. That is an insult to the people of Wales.
Mr. Newton:
The amendment of the hon. Member for Newport, West (Mr. Flynn) relates to that. I shall talk about the matter in a moment. No doubt the hon. Gentleman will be able to advance his points during the debate.
Mr. Ted Rowlands (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney):
Given his answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, Central (Mr. Jones), is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Secretary of State for Wales has been going round Wales saying that the proposals are an alternative to a Welsh Assembly?
Mr. Newton:
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State--who, as I have suggested, will seek to catch your eye later in the debate, Mr. Deputy Speaker--has
Standing Order C allows Welsh Members to initiate "short debates" in which speeches will be limited to five minutes or less on topics related to Wales. A Minister will reply to each "short debate", which will allow more detailed consideration of a specific question. It should be possible to cover at least two topics in the time available.
Standing Order D will allow a Minister from the Welsh Office or another Government Department to make a statement about a matter relating to Wales at the beginning of a meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee. Again, I should emphasise that, as is the case with Scotland, whether a statement should be made to the Welsh Grand Committee or on the Floor of the House is necessarily a matter of judgment in each case, but there would be significant advantages not least for Welsh Members in, for example, moving the annual statement on public expenditure in Wales into the Welsh Grand Committee. It would give Welsh Members a better opportunity to question the Secretary of State, as well as relieving one part of the pressure of business on the Floor at what tends to be a congested time in the Session.It is now the practice for the Scottish public expenditure statement to be made to the Scottish Grand Committee each December and that arrangement has worked to the advantage of Scottish Members and the House as a whole.
I can pass quickly over Standing Orders E and F, since they do no more than restate those provisions of the existing Standing Orders that govern the Welsh Grand Committee's consideration of Bills and matters relating exclusively to Wales.
Standing Order G has three principal purposes. First, it enables the Welsh Grand Committee to hold meetings in Cardiff or anywhere else in Wales. The Government recognise that such meetings need to be held in premises that meet the requirements of the Committee in every respect and I can give an assurance that we will not ask the House to approve a meeting in any venue that has not been thoroughly evaluated by the House authorities and found to be suitable.
Mr. Ron Davies (Caerphilly):
To return to the question of the Welsh language, the Leader of the House will know that many of the venues that are being suggested have translation equipment. It would be perfectly natural for him to agree that an experiment could be undertaken, so that when the Welsh Grand Committee met in chambers where translation equipment was available, Welsh could be used. If the amendments are defective, which we would understand, are the Government prepared to accept the principle of Welsh being used in the Welsh Grand Committee?
Mr. Newton:
May I return to that? I promise the hon. Gentleman that I will comment on it, but it would probably be more helpful to the House if I completed my brief description of the Standing Orders before doing so.
The second purpose of Standing Order G is to provide for a calendar specifying the dates, times and places of meetings of the Committee, together with the business to be taken at each meeting. If the House agrees to the motion, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for
Wales hopes to table a motion in the near future setting out a proposed timetable of meetings for the rest of this Session.
Thirdly, that part of the Standing Order gives a further opportunity for Welsh Members to raise matters on behalf of their constituents by providing for a half-hour Adjournment debate to be held at the conclusion of the business set down for each sitting of the Committee, as happens at the end of each sitting of the House.In addition, the motion makes some purely consequential amendments to two existing Standing Orders.
Finally, the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr Davies) pressed me on the possible use of the Welsh language in the proceedings of the Welsh Grand Committee--the hon. Member for Caernarfon also pressed me on that on behalf of the Welsh nationalists. A number of representations were undoubtedly made to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales on that point--my right hon. Friend has made that clear to me--in the course of what turned out to be the somewhat contentious consultations that preceded the bringing forward of this motion.
As the hon. Member for Caernarfon knows, even though he gave us some trouble over it--not for the first time, and probably not for the last--the Government have given the Welsh language consistent support for many years. It was this Government who took through Parliament the Welsh Language Act 1993, which establishes the principle that, in the conduct of public business in Wales, the English and Welsh languages should be treated on a basis of equality. So, I can say straightforwardly that I certainly do not dismiss the point that was raised. However, it is a matter for the House and not the Government to decide. We have to recognise that it raises a significant question of principle since, apart from a few Norman-French survivals used principally for announcing the Royal Assent to Acts of Parliament in the other place and one or two other purposes, English is and has been for centuries the sole language of the United Kingdom Parliament--[Interruption.] This is a serious point and I hope that hon. Members will let me continue.
Clearly, there are implications not only for the proceedings of the Welsh Grand Committee in Wales, but for its proceedings here in Westminster, for the Scottish Grand Committee and, indeed, for the Chamber of the House of Commons. A number of practical issues would also need to be tackled. The hon. Member for Caerphilly commented on one--the availability of translation facilities--and others include whether Committee papers, Order Papers, Hansard and the like should be produced in both languages.
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