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Sir Wyn Roberts: Will the hon. Gentleman take this opportunity to clarify Labour's policy on the taxation powers of a Welsh Assembly? Surely, any decision on the poll tax would be a tax decision and, as I understand it--
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes): Order. I am sorry, but the right hon. Gentleman cannot speak about the Welsh Assembly because it is not the topic before us tonight.
Mr. Morgan: I am afraid that the right hon. Gentleman will have to buy me a pint in the bar later, when I can answer his question, much as I should like to do so now. I entirely accept your verdict, Madam Deputy Speaker.
I can see why the former Minister of State was prompted out of his torpor to make that intervention.We have raised the question whether the Welsh Grand Committee would be able, not to block the legislation, but--having discussed it and turned it down--to prompt a debate on the Floor of the House. We believe that if the Welsh Grand Committee is to be taken seriously, it must be given the ability to recommend that a Bill should not be given a Second Reading. The House would have the right to overturn that decision after further, proper debate--taking account of the views expressed in the Welsh Grand Committee.
If the Leader of the House and the Secretary ofState for Wales do not intend the Welsh Grand Committee to be taken seriously, the new Standing Orders, as amended, should remain. Under those Standing Orders, the members of the Welsh Grand Committee ventilate their feelings, blow off steam in Cardiff, in Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantisiliogo-
gogoch, Monmouth, Machynlleth, Pontrhydygroes, Pontrhydfendigaid or Llanaelhaearn or wherever. I am sure that, when the Secretary of State winds up the debate, he will wish to run through that Automobile Association map of Wales, as I am sure that he has been well coached in such matters for the purposes of the debate. I seethat the Under-Secretary of State for Wales, the hon. Member for Clwyd, North-West (Mr. Richards),is leaving the Chamber to obtain some coaching for the Secretary of State on how to pronounce Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantisiliogo-
gogoch.
When the Welsh Grand Committee has let off steam, what is the House supposed to do about the measure when it returns to the House? Under the present arrangements, the Secretary of State can simply say, "You have had the debate in the Welsh Grand Committee." The Government believe that there is a choice; a two or three-hour debate can be held in the Welsh Grand Committee, but the measure must then be passed on the nod when it comes to the Floor of the House and there can be no further debate, or the debate can be held on the Floor of the House, in which case there will be no debate in the Welsh Grand Committee. There cannot be a debate in the Committee and on the Floor of the House.
The purpose of the amendment is to raise the fundamental issue of whether the Welsh Grand Committee is meant to give the Government guidance on
how the people of Wales feel about a piece of legislation. Having been given that guidance, the Government should think again, amend the Bill or drop it. The Government will still have the final say; they will be able to decide whether they want to ram through the poll tax or the Welsh Language Bill because they have a majority in the House. But will the Government take any notice of the Welsh Grand Committee's proceedings? That is the important question. That is why we say that if the Welsh Grand Committee decides that a Bill should not be given a Second Reading, that should encourage, not eliminate, further debate on the Floor of the House to take account of the views expressed in the Committee.
I am hoping that, by the time the Secretary of State winds up the debate, he will realise that, when the Leader of the House made his mini-concession, it was accepted as a significant movement. The Government were saying, "We will not give you what you want, but we will refer the matter to the Select Committee on Procedure."The Opposition gave that concession a tremendous welcome; it did not give us immediate satisfaction, but we welcomed it. We are willing to work to improve the procedures of the Welsh Grand Committee by consensus if there is a bit of give and take. We are not willing to have our noses rubbed in the ground just because the Government have a majority of the votes in the House. We do not expect the Government to give us everything that we want, but we expect some give.
Despite the one small concession that we have received from the Leader of the House--which I accept was given after due consideration behind the scenes and in conjunction with the Secretary of State for Wales--we have been worried that the proceedings in preparation for the changes to the Welsh Grand Committee have not been characterised by give and take by the Government. Today's concession was the first evidence we have had of the Government's ability or willingness to consider what the Conservative party needs to do to avoid a wipe-out in Wales as the general election approaches. That is a serious possibility and the Government are beginning to realise that they will have to make the occasional concession--when they do, we respond well. I hope that the Government have learnt that lesson and will realise that, over the next two hours of debate, if they give further concessions, those will be welcomed by the Opposition as evidence that the Government are beginning to realise that they must not try to ram their legislation, views and changes down the throats of the people of Wales, who are overwhelmingly represented by parties opposed to the Conservative Government in Westminster.
We are not asking for the moon in relation to the Welsh language; if we have a meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee in Machynlleth, Aberystwyth or Caernarfon, we are not expecting the Secretary of State to dress up in long, green bardic robes and utter his speech in 15th-century Welsh poetry. We are merely asking for a simultaneous translation of his English.
Sir Wyn Roberts (Conwy):
I apologise for not being present at the unscheduled debate that took place earlier today. I was in Cardiff, on parliamentary business with the Welsh Affairs Committee, and returned only just in time to hear some of what was being said. I think that I caught the flavour of the debate, however. There was an air of make-believe in some of the arguments that I heard.
I welcome the proposals of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House in respect of the Welsh language, which is to be treated on a basis of equality with English in Wales. I feel that it would be appropriate for speeches in Welsh to be heard in the Welsh Grand Committee in Wales--although, as I suggested to my right hon. Friend, I agree with him that the matter should be referred to the Procedure Committee. I am sure that finer points are involved, which merit further consideration.
I wholeheartedly endorse my right hon. Friend's proposals to enlarge the scope of the Welsh Grand Committee, and to increase opportunities for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and his colleagues to give an account of themselves--and for Welsh Members of all parties to hold them to account, as we are empowered to do by this United Kingdom Parliament.It is important to note, however, that, while there is to be a significant extension of the Committee's role, there is no fundamental change in its constitutional status. Its overall function remains to check on the Executive by questioning Ministers and criticising constructively or destructively, as necessity dictates.
The Committee's proceedings will, of course, be reported to the House wherever they take place, and its presence should be welcomed in different parts of Wales. I am bound to add that whether it will be welcomed is another matter; the Committee may well act as a honeypot for publicity seekers of all kinds.
Mr. Jon Owen Jones:
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman a question that I asked the Leader of the House earlier? Why does he suppose that, after 17 years, the Government have proposed these changes to the Welsh Grand Committee? Why did the right hon. Gentleman not advance such proposals during his long and distinguished service in the Welsh Office?
Sir Wyn Roberts:
On the basis of that argument, no one would do anything. As my right hon. Friend has said, one can always be accused of not having thought of something before. Throughout the years, however, we have thought in terms of improving the Committee's performance, and I know that the Government have been very conscious of some of the criticisms that have been made of it. In any event, my right hon. Friend's proposed changes will extend its scope.
Opposition Members give the impression that they wish that the Committee--when they have a majority, of course--had real power to do their will. That is what is behind all this, and the debate that took place earlier this afternoon. Alternatively, they wish that the Committee
had the power to force the Government to do their will. Such a division of executive power would, however, mean a fundamental change in the country's unitary constitution, and would result in conflict between the Welsh Grand Committee and the House of Commons when there was a Conservative majority. I believe that that desire for change and for power inspires Opposition Members.
The same serious defect can be seen in the devolution scheme encapsulated in the Wales Act 1978, which was subsequently rejected by the people of Wales in a referendum, and the same deep fault lies in Labour's current plans for an executive assembly. There is also the prospect of conflict with local authorities, many of whose powers would be absorbed by a Labour party assembly. [Laughter.] I am speaking to, and justifying, my right hon. Friend's proposals. I am not speaking to the amendments. There is every reason why I should be allowed to support the proposals, and to tell the House what I think is wrong with the motivation behind the amendments.
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