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9.15 pm
Mr. Alan W. Williams (Carmarthen): I am grateful for the opportunity to make a few remarks about the proposed changes to the Welsh Grand Committee.
During my time in the House, I have felt that the Welsh Grand Committee is an underused creature. It meets irregularly, but potentially it is an excellent forum, and as it is made up of all the Members of Parliament who represent Wales, it should naturally deal with business that affects only Wales. Opposition Members felt deeply disappointed that the Welsh Language Bill was referred to Standing Committee, not the Welsh Grand Committee. As the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy(Mr. Llwyd) pointed out, many of the amendments that we tabled, which had all-party support among the Opposition parties and were popular in Wales, were voted down by English Conservative Members.
I very much wanted to be on the Committee that considered the Local Government (Wales) Bill, as did other hon. Members who represent Welsh constituencies. I naturally defer to my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) and my hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke (Mr. Ainger) because of their experience and constituency interest, but I felt it highly improper thatI could not speak for the new Carmarthenshire and for its powers and so on, when many English Conservative Members, who had no constituency interests, were voting down amendments tabled by the Labour party and the Opposition parties in Wales.
I broadly welcome the changes that the Government propose. The extra Question Time would be lively, although 30 minutes would not be enough, as many Back Benchers--especially Labour Back Benchers, as there are so many of us--already find it difficult to participate in the 35 or 40 minutes of Welsh questions. The time allowed for short debates--five minutes for the proposer, five minutes for the Minister and three minutes for other Members--is very short. I have some reservations about ministerial statements, especially if it is the Prime Minister or the Chancellor of the Exchequer making an opportunist guest appearance. Such details need to be changed, but broadly the measures are good.
I support the amendments spoken to by my hon. Friends the Members for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) and for Newport, West (Mr. Flynn). Indeed, I echo the comment made by the hon. Member for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North (Mr. Dafis) on the use of the Welsh language. It is no big deal. It should be straightforward. Simultaneous translation is widespread now, certainly in Welsh-speaking Wales and across most of Wales. It is easily practicable. In view of the precedent of the Select Committee, I cannot see why the Leader of the House and the Secretary of State are making such a mountain of what should be a straightforward procedure and why they do not treat the Welsh language on an equal basis.
Another feature that is missing from the Standing Orders is the frequency with which the reformed Welsh Grand Committee will meet. At the infamous meeting of 20 February, the Secretary of State said that it would meet about eight times a year. We want at least that.The Labour party suggested that it should meet every other Tuesday morning--a regular spot, which we would all know to expect. That would be 15 or 18 meetings a year.
What will the people of Wales make of the changes,if the House votes for them this evening? The changes will give us a body with no powers that meets eight times a year for two and a half hours. That will amount to20 hours a year. The people of Wales want something that meets at least 20 hours a week, with real powers to debate and exercise powers that are now the powers of the Secretary of State. That can come only when we have an elected Welsh Assembly.
Mr. Win Griffiths (Bridgend):
We have had an illuminating debate, even including the comments made by the right hon. Member for Conwy (Sir W. Roberts), and his particular concern to save the Labour party as the party of government in Wales. I can see which way he is veering on his retirement.
The presentation of the new Standing Orders and our amendments represent a missed opportunity for the Government to take a significant step forward in the conduct of Welsh affairs within the House of Commons. My hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) spotlighted clearly in his speech the fact that we have here a fig leaf presented by the Government, in an effort to show that they are interested in extending in some way our opportunities to debate Welsh affairs. I suppose that we can go that far, because the changes in the Standing Orders will provide additional opportunities to debate Welsh affairs and to ask more questions about Welsh affairs, but they will do nothing more substantial. They will not allow Members of Parliament who represent Welsh constituencies to play a more practical and effective role in determining what happens in Wales.
The proposal made in a well-researched speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, our respected Friend with much experience, took one aspect of the business of the House dealt with by European Standing Committees, which could easily be used on the Welsh scene within the Welsh Grand Committee, to improve the ability of Welsh Members to question Ministers on their plans for any particular year in which they happened to be with us. They will not be there for much longer now, thank goodness. In view of what my hon. Friend said, some Opposition Members--no one knows who they may be--will be quaking at the thought of being on the Government's side of the Dispatch Box under the procedure that he has proposed and subject to questioning by him. Given that the procedure is already in use in the House, I hope that the Government will be prepared to support my hon. Friend's two amendments. We believe that they are worthy of support.
I was pleased that the Leader of the House was prepared to make a concession and consider the use of the Welsh language in meetings of the Grand Committee in Wales. My hon. Friend the Member for Newport, West (Mr. Flynn), although I missed the early part of his speech, seemed to be making an effective case about why it should be natural for Welsh to be used in debates in the Grand Committee when it meets in Wales. My hon. Friends the Members for Cardiff, South and Penarth(Mr. Michael) and for Carmarthen (Mr. Williams) argued convincingly that there should be no technical or other problems with that.
I would go so far as to say that section 3(2)(b) of the Welsh Language Act 1993 gives the Government a duty to ensure that Welsh can be used in the Welsh Grand Committee in Wales. It is fair to say that the proceedings of the Welsh Grand Committee are public business and that section 3 states that one of the functions of the Welsh Language Board is to
When the matter is referred to the Procedure Committee, the Government will have the opportunity to recommend, as the Leader of the House said, that it should consider positively the way in which the amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Newport, West can best be put into effect. While I accept that that cannot be hurried through in time for a meeting in a month's time, the Committee should be asked to consider the proposal with a view to bringing a report to the House that can be considered before the summer recess. On second thoughts, that may put the Committee under pressure because of rumours, which I hope that we can set aside, that we are due to finish at the end of May because of the Government's fears of not being able to continue for much longer.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Rod Richards):
The hon. Gentleman should not bank on it.
Mr. Griffiths:
I am still planning my holidays for August. The report should be made before the summer recess.
Given the angst that the run-up to the debate has caused, it is worth repeating that it was back in March 1993 that we first suggested that it would be worth reconsidering the proceedings of the Welsh Grand Committee to make it more effective. Since then, we have made several attempts to get a constructive dialogue going. Unfortunately, I was not able to attend the meeting of the Welsh parliamentary Labour party--
Mr. Ron Davies:
The Welsh parliamentary party.
Mr. Griffiths:
I am sorry. I was unable to attend the Welsh parliamentary party meeting because of my duties elsewhere--I was at the Standing Committee on the iniquitous Nursery Education and Grant-Maintained Schools Bill. It is most unfortunate that, within an hour of the meeting, the Secretary of State virtually rubbished
The first amendment is fairly technical and ought to cause no problems. My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan) outlined the argument for amendment (ff) on the quorum at the beginning of the debate. It simply falls into line with the practice in the Scottish Grand Committee and would certainly make sense, given the references already made to the fact that there are some parallels on certain basic points between the two Committees.
I hope that the Government will also accept amendment (a). Three members of the Committee with constituencies outside Wales ought to be a sufficient number when conducting the business of the Welsh Grand Committee. I hope that the Government are prepared to accept that--unless, of course, they think that a Conservative Government could come to power without any Conservative Members of Parliament representing Welsh constituencies. Otherwise, three members plus, from time to time, the one, two or three Conservative members of the Committee who might represent Welsh constituencies should be sufficient for them.
My hon. Friend also referred to amendment (p) and the need to ensure that the Welsh Grand Committee recommends that a Bill be read a Second time. A Bill should proceed only if it gains the assent of the Grand Committee. That would be a small but important step forward. It would establish a really democratic view of the Government's business in Wales.
Hon. Members cited a number of examples of how that might have helped the Government to avoid some disastrous mistakes, such as the poll tax, for which we have a permanent 2.5 per cent. increase on value added tax. The Government could have avoided that if they had tested the proposal in a Welsh Grand Committee that had the right to determine whether such a Bill should proceed.
A number of references have been made to the legislation to reform Welsh local government, the Local Government (Wales) Act 1994. As my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen said, he dearly wished to be on the Standing Committee that considered that Bill; he had direct interests that he wanted to air in detail on behalf of his constituents. As a result of the way in which the Committee was structured, the present procedures of the House and the fact that the Government decided not to use Standing Order No. 86, which would have enabled them to hold the entire debate in an all-Welsh Committee, he missed that opportunity--much to the detriment of the way in which that Bill proceeded through the House.
"advise persons exercising functions of a public nature on the ways in which effect may be given to the principle that, in the conduct of public business and the administration of justice in Wales, the English and Welsh languages should be treated on a basis of equality".
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