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Mr. Hague: I must deal with the remaining points.
We have had frank disagreements on other matters. There were proposals for an increased or enhanced legislative role for the Grand Committee. Of course, the hon. Member for Caernarfon spoke from a completely different viewpoint on these matters. He has a wholly different perception of how the United Kingdom should be governed. We understand that; he wants to take the United Kingdom apart, so we approach the subject quite differently. We are making our proposals on the basis of the government of the UK as a whole.
There have been elections in which the Labour party won in the UK as a whole entirely because of votes cast in Scotland and Wales. Everyone accepted that, and I have never noticed Labour saying that English Members should make separate legislative decisions because they won a majority only because of votes cast in Scotland. The UK continues to be governed on the original basis.
Amendment (p) would set up the role of the Welsh Grand Committee quite differently from that of the Scottish Grand Committee, the European Standing Committees, Standing Committees on Delegated Legislation and Second Reading Committees, so we cannot accept it.
The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney wanted to intervene, and I now have time to give way to him.
Mr. Rowlands:
I had intended to press my amendment to a vote, so I want further clarification from the Secretary of State. The key to amendment (dd) is the second paragraph which sets out a specific procedure about the first hour of questions. That provision does not appear in the draft Standing Orders, which contain many prescriptive procedural provisions. I cannot see how the provision that I seek can be added or informally agreed unless it is part of the Standing Order itself.
Mr. Hague:
My advice is that it is possible to adopt the procedure that the hon. Gentleman envisages under the proposed Standing Orders. A Minister can make a statement and be questioned on it. That will be followed by a debate. The difficulty with the amendment is that it
I give an undertaking to the hon. Gentleman that if any difficulty arises in the coming months in following the procedure that he advocates, I shall certainly want to introduce a further change by way of clarification. I assure him that all my advice is in the direction that he seeks.
The changes are being proposed on the basis of government of the United Kingdom. That is the key to them, and it is the difference between our proposals and those of some Opposition Members. We have suggested a series of proposals to improve the workings of the Grand Committee. No one who has attended its meetings can fail to think anything other than that its proceedings should be improved. We have incorporated proposals made by the Opposition, but, in many respects, we have gone further, which is unfortunate for members of the Labour Front Bench who have struggled ever since to make this a party issue.
We have taken the proposals through a consultation process during which a number of additional ideas have been accepted. We have brought them for debate to the Floor of the House where we propose to accept further amendments which have only now been brought forward. That lengthy procedure, in which every Welsh Member has had the opportunity to participate, has been described at times as lacking in consultation or disgraceful. This full evening's debate on the Floor of the House has, oddly, been described by the hon. Member for Caerphilly as restrictive. This is the first time that a full evening's debate on the Floor of the House, as opposed to a debate in Committee, has been described as restrictive.
After examination, and given the range of reasons for improving the workings of the Grand Committee, we have now come to the right proposals. It is time to press ahead with them, so I commend them to the House and I hope that they will receive its support. Amendments that do not fit in with them, other than those that I have already shown flexibility over or that I have accepted, should be rejected by the House.
Amendment proposed: (a), in line 15, leave out 'five' and insert 'three'.--[Mr. Ron. Davies.]
Question put, That the amendment be made:--
The House divided: Ayes 50, Noes 164.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly negatived.
It being after Ten o'clock, Madam Speaker put the remaining Questions relating to Welsh Business which she was then required to put, pursuant to Order [this day].
Amendment made: (ff), in line 18, at end insert--
Amendment proposed: (p), in line 116, after 'committee', insert--
AYES
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)
Bennett, Andrew F
Bradley, Keith
Brown, N (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)
Callaghan, Jim
Carlile, Alexander (Montgomery)
Clark, Dr David (South Shields)
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Corston, Jean
Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)
Dafis, Cynog
Dalyell, Tam
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)
Dixon, Don
Dowd, Jim
Flynn, Paul
Foulkes, George
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Hall, Mike
Hanson, David
Hood, Jimmy
Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side)
Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Mon)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW)
Llwyd, Elfyn
Mackinlay, Andrew
McWilliam, John
Marek, Dr John
Maxton, John
Michael, Alun
Morgan, Rhodri
Pike, Peter L
Rogers, Allan
Rowlands, Ted
Salmond, Alex
Simpson, Alan
Skinner, Dennis
Spearing, Nigel
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Timms, Stephen
Wigley, Dafydd
Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W)
Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Mr. Peter Hain and
Mr. Greg Pope.
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)
Alexander, Richard
Amess, David
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baker, Rt Hon Kenneth (Mole V)
Baldry, Tony
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Bates, Michael
Bellingham, Henry
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Booth, Hartley
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bowden, Sir Andrew
Bowis, John
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Sir Graham
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Ian (South Dorset)
Burt, Alistair
Butler, Peter
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln)
Carttiss, Michael
Chapman, Sir Sydney
Clappison, James
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ru'clif)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coe, Sebastian
Congdon, David
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John
Couchman, James
Cran, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)
Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Devlin, Tim
Dicks, Terry
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Dover, Den
Duncan-Smith, Iain
Durant, Sir Anthony
Dykes, Hugh
Eggar, Rt Hon Tim
Elletson, Harold
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Evennett, David
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Forman, Nigel
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Fox, Rt Hon Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
French, Douglas
Gallie, Phil
Garnier, Edward
Gill, Christopher
Gillan, Cheryl
Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Hague, Rt Hon William
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archibald
Hampson, Dr Keith
Harris, David
Hawkins, Nick
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David
Hendry, Charles
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael
Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)
Horam, John
Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Hunter, Andrew
Jack, Michael
Jenkin, Bernard
Jessel, Toby
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Jones, Robert B (W Hertfdshr)
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael
King, Rt Hon Tom
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knapman, Roger
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Rt Hon Greg (Derby N)
Kynoch, George (Kincardine)
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Legg, Barry
Leigh, Edward
Lidington, David
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
MacKay, Andrew
Maclean, Rt Hon David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Maitland, Lady Olga
Malone, Gerald
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Moate, Sir Roger
Neubert, Sir Michael
Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Nicholls, Patrick
Norris, Steve
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Pawsey, James
Portillo, Rt Hon Michael
Richards, Rod
Riddick, Graham
Robathan, Andrew
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S)
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela
Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian
Shepherd, Sir Colin (Hereford)
Skeet, Sir Trevor
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Soames, Nicholas
Spencer, Sir Derek
Spink, Dr Robert
Spring, Richard
Sproat, Iain
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Stephen, Michael
Streeter, Gary
Sweeney, Walter
Sykes, John
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V)
Trend, Michael
Waldegrave, Rt Hon William
Walden, George
Waller, Gary
Ward, John
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel
Watts, John
Wells, Bowen
Whittingdale, John
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld)
Wolfson, Mark
Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Mr. Derek Conway and
Mr. Simon Burns.
'(1A) The quorum of the committee shall be seven, subject to paragraph (5) of Standing Order G (Welsh Grand Committee (sittings))'.--[Mr. Ron Davies.]
'the committee having recommended that the bill be read a second time'.--[Mr. Ron Davies.]
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