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Class XIII, Vote 4
Question put,
The House divided: Ayes 121, Noes 10.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly agreed to.
Resolved,
Madam Deputy Speaker then put the Questions which she was directed to put at that hour, pursuant to paragraph (1) of Standing Order No. 53 (Questions on voting of estimates &c.).
Resolved,
Resolved,
Resolved,
Resolved,
Resolved,
Ordered,
Mr. Michael Jack accordingly presented a Bill to apply certain sums out of the Consolidated Fund to the service of the years ending on 31st March 1995 and 1996; And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 72.]
Pensioner War Veterans
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.--[Dr. Liam Fox.]
Mr. Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford):
I wish to take up the case of my constituent, Mr. Jack Conn, which is linked to the cases of many constituents of other hon. Members.
Mr. Conn served in the Royal Medical Corps from1 November 1939 to May 1946 and rose to the rank of acting corporal. He saw service in the middle east from 1942, and spent most of the time there until he left the Army.
Mr. Conn had, by all accounts, a fairly uneventful war, although, being in the Royal Medical Corps, he dealt with many casualties of battles such as El Alamein and beyond. Interestingly, his wife Sheena was the operator who sent the signal that conveyed from General Eisenhower's headquarters in Rheims the historic words:
That is a small by the bye for my hon. Friend the Minister.
On 13 June 1994, Mr. Conn, worried that he would have no medals for the 50th anniversary of VE day because they had been stolen from his son's house, contacted the Ministry of Defence medal office, requesting that his 1939-45 star, defence medal, Africa star and war medal be replaced, as they had been stolen in a burglary. They were being stored at his son's house at the time. The property was not insured because he had not believed that he had enough money to insure the medals.
Mr. Conn received a standard response, advising him that his records would be checked and that he would have to pay a charge to have his medals replaced. He had already sent his AB64 book and he thought that that would cover the search. He received another letter from the Ministry of Defence on 11 October 1994, saying that his records had not been found and asking that he fill in a further questionnaire, although he had already sent his AB64 which he had thought would be enough. The Ministry of Defence still needed more information.
Mr. Conn contacted me on 5 April 1995, and I went to the MOD and contacted the medal office, enclosing a copy of Mr. Conn's AB64, which he had sent to the MOD the previous year without much success.
Eventually, on 11 May, I received a letter from my hon. Friend Lord Henley, then Under-Secretary of State for Defence, saying that Mr. Conn's service records were still unavailable, but that he expected that his application for replacement medals would be finalised by July. That was during the 50th anniversary year and obviously it was important that Mr. Conn had the medals in the year.
On 18 August, I had to write to my noble Friend Earl Howe, who had replaced Lord Henley, asking what had happened to the application as Mr. Conn had heard nothing further from the MOD. On 8 September, my noble Friend responded, confirming that the medals that Mr. Conn was entitled to receive were there and saying that it would cost him £56.95 plus postage to have them sent to him.
Mr. Conn contacted me again to say that, unfortunately, he was unable to afford that sum at that time and would therefore be unable to claim his medals. Like many people, he was under financial restraints as a pensioner and the charge would, he believed, add to his outgoings and he could not justify it.
It is interesting to note that when the local pensioner group of which Mr. Conn is a member took up his case, the secretary received a letter from the medal office saying:
It was that statement that annoyed, if not concerned,Mr. Conn, as he felt that he was being dismissed as a problem rather than being seen as part of a previous solution.
I was subsequently asked by my constituents to petition Parliament. There were 1,400 names on the petition, which I lodged behind the Chair. Many of those names came from outside the constituency and I received a flood a letters at the time from many people laying out similar cases and problems. The petition requested that the House urge the Ministry of Defence to consider the plight ofMr. Conn and others of like disposition, having been awarded medals in recognition of their service in the armed forces of Her Majesty the Queen or her predecessors, and having been deprived of them by unlawful means or by misadventure and now being unable to replace them, and to endeavour to replace those medals. In essence, that is what tonight's debate is about; it is about the spirit behind that petition.
There was a small press campaign in The Sun to gain support for the cause. I received some fascinating letters as a result of that campaign, and I should like to draw the attention of the House to just one of them. It was from Mrs. Marie Meikleham of Andersonstown, Belfast, who had just paid the same sum for her husband's RAF medals. That amount of money constituted her weekly income from her pension and she felt that, although she had paid it, she had had to make some serious savings elsewhere. Her letter stated:
I do not intend to draw on that letter too much, but it strikes me that Mrs. Meikleham's husband had died and she wished to have some memento of her husband, whose medals had obviously disappeared. She found herself in an invidious position; despite the fact that her husband, like many others, had put his life on the line for this country, she found that she had to pay for the medals. She had to pay what seemed to me to be a reasonably small sum, but was, to her and many like her, a large sum.
Realising that the problem was so widespread,I presented an early-day motion. To date, about 122 hon. Members have signed it; I asked only about 50 to do so but, remarkably, over the following few weeks, more and more hon. Members went to the Table Office and added their names. That is unusual; I did not chase them, but clearly the cause struck a chord with many of my colleagues.
I later received a letter from Earl Howe in response to another letter that I sent to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State about the cost of the medals. Once again, the Ministry of Defence stayed with the line that the cost of replacing those medals must be borne by the recipient.
I should like to raise a few thoughts with my hon. Friend the Minister of State for the Armed Forces.Are we going to go through this saga every time we come up to the 50th anniversary of important military actions in which our constituents and their parents have fought--such as those in Korea or Malaysia? If many of those dismissive letters are sent out, it augurs ill for the relationship between the Ministry of Defence and pensioner groups, many of whom include veterans.
My hon. Friend the Minister of State is perhaps unique in Government in that he is one of a dwindling number of people who have seen service in the armed forces.I hope that he understands the importance of medals to many people--I am pleased to see him on the Front Bench to respond to me tonight.
That a further supplementary sum not exceeding £19,355,000 be granted to Her Majesty out of the Consolidated Fund to complete or defray the charges which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31st March 1996 for expenditure by the Department of Social Security on administration, for agency payments, the promotion of Government policy on disability issues, and for certain other services including grants to local authorities and voluntary organisations.
AYES
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)
Alexander, Richard
Amess, David
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Bates, Michael
Bellingham, Henry
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Booth, Hartley
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bowden, Sir Andrew
Bowis, John
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Sir Graham
Browning, Mrs Angela
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butler, Peter
Carttiss, Michael
Chapman, Sir Sydney
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ru'clif)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coe, Sebastian
Congdon, David
Conway, Derek
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John
Cran, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Devlin, Tim
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Dover, Den
Duncan-Smith, Iain
Dykes, Hugh
Elletson, Harold
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Faber, David
Forman, Nigel
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
French, Douglas
Gallie, Phil
Garnier, Edward
Gill, Christopher
Gillan, Cheryl
Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Hague, Rt Hon William
Hampson, Dr Keith
Harris, David
Hawkins, Nick
Heald, Oliver
Hendry, Charles
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Jack, Michael
Jenkin, Bernard
Jessel, Toby
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Jones, Robert B (W Hertfdshr)
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Rt Hon Greg (Derby N)
Kynoch, George (Kincardine)
Lidington, David
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
MacKay, Andrew
Maclean, Rt Hon David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Maitland, Lady Olga
Malone, Gerald
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Moate, Sir Roger
Neubert, Sir Michael
Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Nicholls, Patrick
Norris, Steve
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, James
Pawsey, James
Richards, Rod
Riddick, Graham
Robathan, Andrew
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Shepherd, Sir Colin (Hereford)
Skeet, Sir Trevor
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Soames, Nicholas
Spencer, Sir Derek
Spink, Dr Robert
Sproat, Iain
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Stephen, Michael
Streeter, Gary
Sweeney, Walter
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Trend, Michael
Waller, Gary
Waterson, Nigel
Wells, Bowen
Whittingdale, John
Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld)
Wolfson, Mark
Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Mr. Roger Knapman and
Mr. Gyles Brandreth.
NOES
Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)
Flynn, Paul
Foulkes, George
Llwyd, Elfyn
Mackinlay, Andrew
Maxton, John
Salmond, Alex
Skinner, Dennis
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Wigley, Dafydd
Mr. Tony Banks and
Mr. Alan Simpson.
That a further supplementary sum not exceeding £19,355,000 be granted to Her Majesty out of the Consolidated Fund to complete or defray the charges which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31st March 1996 for expenditure by the Department of Social Security on administration, for agency payments, the promotion of Government policy on disability issues, and for certain other services including grants to local authorities and voluntary organisations.
11 Mar 1996 : Column 757
That during the year ending on 31st March 1997 a number not exceeding 52,050 all ranks be maintained for Naval Service.
That during the year ending on 31st March 1997 a number not exceeding 140,260 all ranks be maintained for Army Service, a number not exceeding 131,500 for the Individual Reserves, and a number not exceeding 59,000 for the Territorial Army.
That during the year ending on 31st March 1997 a number not exceeding 70,100 all ranks be maintained for the Air Force Service, a number not exceeding 19,305 for the Royal Air Force Reserve, and a number not exceeding 2,310 for the Royal Auxiliary Air Force.
That a sum not exceeding £148,670,792.82 be granted to her Majesty out of the Consolidated Fund to make good excesses of certain grants for Civil Services for the year ended on 31st March 1995, as set out in House of Commons paper No. 196.
11 Mar 1996 : Column 758
That a further supplementary sum not exceeding £3,426,734,000 be granted to Her Majesty out of the Consolidated Fund to complete or defray the charges for Defence and Civil Services for the year ending on 31st March 1996, as set out in House of Commons Papers Nos. 197 and 260.
That a Bill be brought in upon the foregoing Resolutions relating to Supplementary Estimates 1995-96 and the Estimates, Excesses, 1994-95; And that the Chairman of Ways and Means, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. William Waldegrave, Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory, Mrs. Angela Knight and Mr. Michael Jack do prepare and bring it in.
10.49 pm
"unconditional surrender of all German land, sea and air forces in Europe . . . all active operations cease".
"Free replacements would be an unfair burden on official finances and it would be impossible to manage such a procedure and effect control to avoid abuse."
"I recently paid £56.89 to the RAF to have my late husband's medals replaced . . . He died 19 years ago after suffering five heart attacks in six years. Professor Frank Partridge, who was also a prisoner of war in the Far East, and a very well known heart specialist, told us that my husband's heart problems were probably caused by a lack of B1 while a prisoner."
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