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Mr. Rifkind: The proposals in the White Paper do not in themselves require a renegotiation of the Maastricht treaty; but I accept that some of them will be controversial. We may start off with few allies at the conference as regards some of the proposals. That does not alarm or depress me. I recall that when the Government identified the need for a British budget rebate, we started without any allies, but after robust negotiations we got what we believed to be our right. So if the merits of the argument are powerful and convincing, in due course we shall prevail.
Mr. John Home Robertson (East Lothian): As the cost to the British economy of exchanges with mainland European currencies is now as great as, or even greater than, the cost of our contribution to the budget of the EU, has not the time come to give positive consideration to the case for a single European currency?
Mr. Rifkind: I hear what the hon. Gentleman says. We believe that the proper time to consider the question of a single currency is not in this Parliament. There is no possibility of that before 1999, and the Government's view on the matter has in any case been presented clearly on previous occasions.
Sir Dudley Smith (Warwick and Leamington): I agree with my right hon. and learned Friend that NATO is the bedrock of European security and defence. Given his welcome approach, does he agree that the future of the Western European Union is probably very good if it can at last become the proper pillar of NATO in the European context? Does he further agree that a takeover by the European Union, which he has resisted today, must be repelled at all costs?
Mr. Rifkind: I agree. I welcome my hon. Friend's support, particularly as he is fully involved in defence issues affecting the WEU. The crucial point is that co-operation between the WEU and the EU makes sense, but it must be co-operation, not subordination. The membership of the two bodies is different; they have
different treaty bases. It would be quite improper for the EU to aspire to a defence role--that is not its function, nor should it become so.
Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington): Is it not true that, without the pressure of convergence, a number of our European partners would have found themselves in far greater financial trouble today--certainly on the inflation front?
Mr. Rifkind: If Governments choose to try to bring their inflation down--their public sector deficits down--that is highly desirable. If it happens throughout Europe in a rational and sensible way, the European economy can only benefit from that; but it must be done consistently with economic reality.
Mr. David Howell (Guildford): Does my right hon. and learned Friend accept that his White Paper, which I know has not been easy to draft, sounds extremely positive? That seems to be recognised on both sides of the House, and it is welcome. Also welcome was his warning about the unending accumulation of powers by central authorities in the Union, and the need to hold them in check. But will he explain precisely how we shall put some substance into the drive for subsidiarity and the returning of powers to nation states? Has he seen a recent report that claims that, after two years of listing all the measures that ought to be returned to nation state level by subsidiarity, the only one that has in fact been returned is a directive on the management of zoos? That does not sound as if great progress has been made.
Mr. Rifkind: I thank my right hon. Friend for his welcoming opening remarks. The first step towards achieving what we all seek is to get entrenched in the treaty not only the principle of subsidiarity but, as we now propose, some of the detailed guidelines agreed at European summits. We know that whenever issues are in dispute, it is what is in the treaty that ultimately decides what the end product will be. So that is a high priority.
There has already been a welcome reduction in the number of new directives from Brussels, in part because of the completion of the single market process and in part because of the substantial difference in style of Mr. Santer, compared with the Commission headed by Jacques Delors. The trend in that respect is encouraging, but we have one heck of a long way to go. The more subsidiarity we can get entrenched in the treaty, the easier it will be to ensure that that is reflected in how the EU operates.
Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover):
Is not it time that some Minister or Opposition Front Bencher made it clear that political treaties do not last for ever, whether they are bilateral or multilateral? That will have to be faced at some time. We have had 23 years of this unmitigated disaster. We no longer use our own fishing fleets; the shipbuilding industry around Britain has been wrecked. Europeans never bought our coal and bought only very little of our steel. There are 20 million people out of work in Europe, and 4 million--the real figure--out of work here.
This has been a trail of disasters, and millions of people out there are longing for someone to admit that it has not worked. The halcyon days are over now. Neo-fascist parties are scattered all round Europe. Most Common
Market countries have different views on Bosnia, Croatia and the rest. It has to be admitted at some time. The emperor has no clothes, and all treaties eventually finish up in the political dustbin. That is where this will end.
Mr. Rifkind:
I am interested in hearing these wise philosophical statements. I noticed that they were addressed to both Front Benches. I do not know whether I speak on behalf of the hon. Member for Livingston(Mr. Cook) in any response that I make, but I ask the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) to ponder on one thing. If the European Union has been as unremittingly bad as he implies, it is interesting that countries continue to queue up to join. At the moment,12 countries are anxious to join the European Union. [Interruption.] There may be a variety of motives, but nevertheless the hon. Gentleman perhaps slightly exaggerated his point.
Mr. Jonathan Aitken (South Thanet):
May I welcome the parts of my right hon. and learned Friend's White Paper which, for the first time, seem to strike some good Euro-sceptic themes, such as the demands for new limits on Community action and new limits on the European Court of Justice, and, of course, the commitments to defend firmly our national opt-outs and our national veto? May I warn him, however, that if by any chance the important battles that he and his negotiating team will fight were to be lost or be surrendered by the revealingly new Europhile Labour Front Bench that we witnessed this afternoon, the House would, for the first time in many years, have to consider seriously the option of withdrawal?
Mr. Rifkind:
I believe that an historic debate is taking place throughout Europe. I freely acknowledge that progress with the ideas that we represent is slow, but I believe that the partnership of nations that we envisage for the European Union goes with the grain not just of British opinion, but ultimately of that in other member states as well. I do not detect any enthusiasm in any country in Europe, outside, perhaps, certain elements of the political class, for some supra-national European nation state. I do not believe that there is any enthusiasm for that. If that is the case, given that these are all democratic nations, I believe that that will show itself in due course.
Mr. Donald Anderson (Swansea, East):
That is a pipe dream. Is not the reality that the Foreign Secretary has said that he will negotiate changes to the European Court of Justice? He has said that he will robustly ask for this and for that. He is on a loser. Look at the position taken by the French and German Governments. A simple question: what will he do when his position is rejected, as inevitably it will be?
Mr. Rifkind:
The hon. Gentleman may be able to put such a remark to his hon. Friends on his own Front Bench, who are terrified of being isolated, who have said that there will be no permanent opt-outs, and who wish to give up our veto in areas where we currently have it, but he is not entitled to make such a remark to the Government,
Mr. John Butterfill (Bournemouth, West):
Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that although it is necessary for us to support the enlargement of the Community, any such enlargement would involve as a prerequisite substantial and significant renegotiation of the finances of the Community and of the common agricultural policy? Does he further agree that there are some areas where the powers and resources of the Commission need to be increased, in particular the stamping out of fraud and the policing and elimination of illegal state subsidies?
Mr. Rifkind:
Yes, that is indeed a high priority, and we have attached importance to improving the controls against fraud both in previous initiatives and in some of the ideas in the White Paper. I also agree with my hon. Friend that, as we move towards enlargement, that enlargement will render essential what the Government have long argued for--a major reform of the common agricultural policy in order to remove some of its more irrational features.
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