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Mr. Norris: The trouble with having bright lawyers in the House is that they always ask the right questions.My hon. and learned Friend has gone straight to the heart of the Bill.
We can defend our position indefensibly, as the hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Hill) tried to do, or in a concrete way, as I tried to do, but it does not matter, because, whatever the present level of investment, we all agree that more is needed. If we agree about that, and if we agree--as appears to be the policy of the Labour party--that the public sector cannot be landed with further commitments and none of us wishes to burden the taxpayer more than necessary, my hon. and learned Friend is entirely right to say that we should support the Bill, and I hope that in due course the House will do so.
If I may, I shall say something about the Bill itself. [Laughter.] It may be a somewhat novel proposition, but none the less I intend to advance it. I appreciate that it may be a risible notion.
Mr. Peter Bottomley:
Bulldozer Norris.
Mr. Norris:
None the less, I shall try.
It is generally agreed that London Transport has made substantial strides in improving services and efficiency in recent decades. The quality of service has progressively improved, and LT has been right to focus carefully on the needs and views of passengers, thus reflecting the principles of the citizens charter--a charter in which I strongly believe.
The citizens charter gives consumers of services which, as it happens, are provided by the state, the rights that they would automatically expect to enjoy if those services were provided by the private sector. The citizens charter has been one of the singular achievements of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. In my opinion, it is not yet appreciated how much it is changing the culture of public services and instilling in them a recognition that, at every level of interface with the public, the public have a right to demand quality of service from operations in the public sector, just as they have the right to demand those services in the private sector.
London Transport's charters for tube and bus users emphasised its commitment to that concept. Efficiency in services has also been much improved by measures such as London Underground's company plan and the contracting out to the private sector of non-core services.
Much of that improvement reflects a transformation in the management of LT and the efforts of LT's hard-working staff, but much has depended on the availability of funds for investment. Much of the underground network dates back to about the turn of the century, so much of it needs to be renewed and brought up to modern standards.
To help meet that need, investment has been running at record levels. As my hon. Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet reminded the House, this year LT will invest more than £1 billion. More than half is being devoted to improvements in the existing network, such as the comprehensive upgrade of the Central line--which, purely accidentally, happens to go through my constituency--which nears completion, and the remainder is principally being spent on the construction of the Jubilee line extension.
To date, most of that investment has been funded by the taxpayer, although I emphasise that the operating surplus that is now being generated by LT is making an increasing contribution. There is often criticism that fares on London Transport are relatively high. That criticism, in so far as it draws comparisons, is a fair comparison.
Ms Glenda Jackson:
It is a justifiable criticism.
Mr. Norris:
I hear the hon. Member for Hampstead and Highgate say that it is a justifiable comparison. I believe that in that respect she is correct, but I want to make it clear that investment in the service can be funded only by the taxpayer or the farepayer. It is vital that we get the balance right and that we look to farepayers--those who use the service--to make a substantial contribution to investment in the system.
For every pound by which lower fares would not cover the running costs of an operation such as London Transport, it would be necessary for any taxpayer contribution to make good that deficiency before it could be invested in improving the service.
I am therefore proud that, in the nearly four years that I have been responsible for London Transport and have been the Minister to whom its chairman has been answerable, we have moved from making losses to making a substantial operating profit, which has then been made available for accelerated investment. The House must not ignore that consequence of a fares policy that I am frequently asked to justify in answer to tough questions from reporters and commentators.
Although our approach is entirely right, we and LT are keen for the private sector to make a fuller contribution to investment financing, which I believe is a common aim among hon. Members on both sides of the House. If we can involve the private sector more directly in the financing and provision of public services, it will help us to deliver higher-quality and more cost-effective services through the exploitation of the full range of private sector commercial, management and creative skills. The Government's private finance initiative has been designed to do precisely that.
LT has already achieved conspicuous success with the PFI through the contract we concluded last year for the provision of new Northern line trains. Hon. Members on both sides of the House with constituencies through which the Northern line runs have very much welcomed that announcement. That £400 million deal will provide a new train service for one of London Underground's busiest lines, with the supplier, GEC Alsthom, taking the responsibility for, and the risk of providing and maintaining, the required number of trains to run the service for the next 20 years. Those new trains are expected to begin entering service from the middle of next year.
London Transport is naturally keen to make further use of the PFI, and competition for further substantial schemes is already in hand. To illustrate the need for the Bill's technical measures, I should like to mention four of the most immediate PFI projects, the first of which is in relation to communications.
We have undertaken a project with LT that will require a contractor to provide an integrated radio system for the underground, based on a fibre-optic network. The network will not only provide updated systems for London Underground's communications systems, but will have sufficient spare capacity for the contractor to provide telecommunications and information technology services to third parties. Sharing costs in that way will greatly reduce the cost to LT. [Laughter.] Does the hon. Member for Newham, South find something amusing in that concept? If so, would he care to unburden himself of it?
Mr. Spearing:
Imagine a cable going through a tunnel that takes not only London Transport's traffic, as it
The Minister should consult railwaymen about the difficulties that have already been encountered above the ground and the risks that have been taken because of all sorts of patterns of mismanagement. He would then discover that the risks to the underground in London would be increased by contracting out power and telecommunications facilities, and possibly ticketing, to individual contractors.
Mr. Norris:
I am tempted to dissect the hon. Gentleman's intervention in the same manner as I did that of the hon. Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington, but I shall content myself by observing that he has set his face against the use of the PFI in respect of telecommunications.
The hon. Gentleman's stance will not sit easily with that of his colleagues on the Opposition Front Bench, but that is a matter for him. He is pretty old to be a member of new Labour, and I suspect that he might have the skids placed under him very quickly if he goes on in that old recidivist vein. There are ugly rumours that that has already happened. I have personal affection for him because he is a good cyclist and enjoys the river, so sharing two of my passions. I fear that we may be seeing the last of the hon. Gentleman with outbursts of that sort. His point is a logical absurdity.
There is not the slightest difficulty in running the cabling in the way we propose. The only difference, on which the Bill concentrates, is the issue of the spare capacity that the contractor may wish to sell to third parties, the effect of which would be to defray costs that would otherwise have to be borne by London Transport. This is a straightforward way to optimise the cost to the taxpayer and to the service.
Mr. Peter Bottomley:
My hon. Friend has answered that point very well. I wish to raise a separate issue that does not necessarily require an immediate answer, but I would like my hon. Friend to consult railway operating businesses about it.
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