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Ms Glenda Jackson: The hon. Gentleman is talking about the Fares Fair period of London Underground's history, when passenger numbers increased by 16 per cent. and road accidents--there is always a benefit--decreased by 3,500.
Mr. Marshall: Although of course the number of passengers increased, the problem with the policy was that, simultaneously, capital investment in maintaining and improving the service was held down. The Greater London council should have invested in improving the service, not in lowering fares. It is remarkable that Opposition Members who talk about the level of past investment--
Mr. Keith Hill: The hon. Gentleman asserted that investment in London Underground declined during the years of the Fares Fair scheme. My recollection is that that scheme operated from between approximately 1980 and 1984. He should therefore be interested to learn that, in 1980, investment in London Underground was £78 million. In 1981, it rose to £91 million; it decreased to £82 million in 1982; it increased to £110 million in 1983; and it ended up at £147 million in 1984. That does not sound like a reduction in investment in London Underground, as a penalty for the Fares Fair experiment.
Mr. Marshall: I was trying to say--I thought it was obvious even to some Labour Members--that the GLC clearly had a choice about how to spend money, and it chose to spend it keeping fares down rather than investing in the future. It is illogical that Labour Members, who are the spiritual successors to that body, should come forward in this debate and complain about past investment in London Underground, particularly as public transport in London is being transformed.
We have discussed the Jubilee line extension. I was somewhat surprised to hear the hon. Member for Streatham complain about that massive improvement in public transport in London, which will benefit not only the
economies of the areas in which the line will be extended, but passengers across the capital because it will take some passengers away from present routes.
There have been improvements to public transport in docklands. Earlier in the debate, we heard about the position at Heathrow, and the fact that the Paddington-Heathrow link will cut that journey time by about 12 minutes. That is a £300 million investment that has been provided substantially by the British Airports Authority.
The Northern line will be transformed. I am sure we can get cross-party agreement on the fact that, for years, it was the misery line in London. The misery line will be transformed into the most modern line in London. Many of the trains currently on that line date back to 1959. That year was a particularly good vintage in political terms, and let us hope that the trains that are coming in 1997 will have an equally good political vintage.
Some hon. Members may have noticed the announcement in the press this morning about
We have been discussing the role of the private sector in funding new developments in London, and it is significant to examine who is funding most of that scheme.It includes groups such as Bombardier Eurorail,Sir Robert McAlpine, Amec Construction, the Royal Bank of Scotland and Centrewest, a bus operator. Three quarters of the project is being funded not by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and his Department but directly by private enterprise. Surely that demonstrates that the private sector is willing to come in and produce a better service for our constituents in London.
It is appropriate at this stage, although in his absence, to pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mr. Norris), who has been the first Minister for Transport in London. He has been a very effective Minister and there is a feeling of regret on both sides of the House that he will not be seeking re-election at the next general election. I think that people would give him the advice that was given to another politician: resign, retire, return. Many of us hope that he will return to grace our debates and to prove once again what an effective operator he is as a Minister of the Crown.
We have discussed the LU Northern line on many occasions in the House. I have explained that the trains are very old and that they are graffiti-ridden. There is so much graffiti on the trains that some of it is now two, three or even five years old. There is nothing more miserable than standing at a station at 7.10 in the morning and seeing a miserable, grey train coming in. We can only look forward to the day next year when we will see bright red and blue trains coming in that will lift our spirits.
Mr. Stephen:
They will probably be covered in graffiti.
Mr. Marshall:
They certainly will not be covered in grafiti, as my hon. Friend has said, because the new trains will be much more graffiti-resistant. It will be very much easier to get graffiti off in the future.
Graffiti is not the only problem with the LU Northern line. The dot-matrix system, which is called an information system, all too often is a misinformation system. Stations are tatty and they need improvement. That is why I welcome the Northern line's £1 billion regeneration, which is, of course, due solely to the PFI.
Ms Short:
The proposal to have public-private partnerships to get more investment into transport was proposed by the Labour party long before the Conservative party moved to pick up that policy.
Mr. Marshall:
It is very amusing to hear the Labour party claiming parentage of the PFI, because it seems that, whenever it is proposed, Labour Members criticise it. Those hon. Members who were in the Chamber yesterday for Health questions will remember what happened.Did the hon. Member for Halifax (Mrs. Mahon) welcome the PFI? Of course she did not; she criticised it. There was even an interruption by the hon. Member for Peckham (Ms Harman), who was, no doubt, seeking to re-establish her socialist credentials. She was critical of the PFI. It sticks in the gullets of most Conservative Members to hear Labour Members come along and claim parentage of the PFI, when they have been completely scathing about every attempt to get private finance into improving the health service, education or transport. They cannot have it both ways.
Ms Short:
I wonder if the hon. Gentleman has talked to anyone who has been involved in bidding under the PFI? If he does, he will find that many companies that have been involved in PFI bids are very critical about how it is structured at present.
Mr. Marshall:
I know that BT, once it decided that the Labour party was a soft touch, thought that it would be rather fun to negotiate with the Labour party. Last October, it turned out that the Labour party was a soft touch and that it gave BT everything that it wanted.
People recognise that if one is bidding under the PFI, it is the Government's duty to get the best possible terms for the taxpayer, for the consumer and for the future of this country. It is quite wrong for politicians to stand up, as the hon. Lady has done, and say, "We will be a soft touch. We will let bidders get what they want." Surely that is not what government is about. The Minister should not be about signing the cheque that GEC wants. I am surprised at the hon. Lady saying that a Labour Government would give big business what it wants, and that this wicked Tory Government are being too tough on big companies.
Ms Short:
Obviously the hon. Gentleman has not talked to people who have bid under the PFI. If the public sector asks the private sector to carry inappropriate risk, one problem is that the capital is attained at very great expense to the public purse. If we reorganise the PFI to distribute risk properly--properly hold the risk that belongs in the public sector with the public sector and get the private sector to take appropriate risk--we will get cheaper capital, which will be cheaper for the public sector.
Mr. Marshall:
I am surprised at the hon. Lady. She has come to the House and, in effect, said, "The Labour party would like to be a soft touch. We would like to give GEC a little more of what it wants, and we would like to take more of the risk." She is obviously listening to the moans of poor GEC.
The idea is that poor Lord Weinstock is having to take more of the risk than he wants. Of course Lord Weinstock will be allocated more of the risk than he wants--after all, he wants the public sector to take all of it and GEC to take
none. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Ms Short), despite her left-wing credentials--I think she used to write for Tribune--has now revealed that she will visit poor Lord Weinstock in the other place to say, "When I am Secretary of State for Transport I will have a cosy party with you and Lord Prior, you can tell us the amount of risk that you want the Labour party to take, and we will take it." I never thought that I would hear the hon. Lady say, "I am the friend of GEC. These wicked Tories are the friend of the taxpayer. They want GEC to take the risk, but I would like the taxpayer to take it." I am amazed that the hon. Lady has come forward as the friend of the capitalist rather than of the taxpayer. Long may we witness conversions from the left wing of the Labour party--it is a badge of honour to be worn by the hon. Lady. I have made my point even if it took two or three interventions from the hon. Lady to do so.
The hon. Member for Ladywood is right that GEC has taken on risks for the Northern line which are currently borne by the taxpayer. She will also be aware that the principle governing the scheme into which GEC has entered is, "No train, no pay." On those days when a train comes along with the slogan "Not in service", which happens quite frequently at the moment, GEC will not be paid. Under the PFI, there is therefore every incentive for GEC to ensure that trains turn up. That is why it is currently investing £23 million in upgrading the Morden and Golders Green depots. That programme will safeguard the jobs of my constituents. Just as important, however, it will guarantee that those who travel on the Northern line will be given a good-quality service, which will enjoy decent maintenance. As my hon. Friend the Minister for Transport in London said earlier this week, half the current delays on the Northern line are caused by faulty maintenance.
I was somewhat surprised by the comments of the hon. Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson), who said that ABB had withdrawn from the negotiations for the Northern line tender. The hon. Member for Ladywood may not be aware that I have spoken to representatives of that company many times and they told me that they submitted a tender. The company certainly did not retreat from the negotiations in the manner suggested by the hon. Member for Cunninghame, North.
The Northern line is being regenerated because of the PFI. I have frequently discussed that line in the House and invited Ministers to travel on it. I was rather surprised by the hon. Member for Streatham, who asked how often the Minister for Transport in London had seen the Northern line at work. My hon. Friend has travelled on that line with me on a number of occasions and seen for himself the practical problems created by it.
We know that the Northern line's modernisation would not have occurred without the PFI and I believe that there is even greater scope for its application to other parts of London Underground.
Only this week we have witnessed the schizophrenic attitude of the Opposition to the PFI. The right hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair) and the hon. Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown) welcome it, as does the hon. Member for Ladywood, who now says that she will be kinder to those private companies than the Government. We are aware, however, that the unofficial leader of the Opposition, the hon. Member for Bolsover
(Mr. Skinner), the hon. Member for Halifax and other Opposition Members have criticised the PFI time after time.
I am also surprised at the attitude of some hon. Members to the modernisation of the Northern line.I welcome that as a Member representing a constituency served by the Northern line and as a passenger on it. That is why I was surprised by the comments on Monday from the hon. Member for Hampstead and Highgate, (Ms Jackson). Instead of welcoming the proposed improvements, she concentrated solely on the short-term difficulties caused by the brief closure of parts of the route later in the year. I am sure that everyone understands that when a railway system is modernised, it is sometimes necessary to close the track in order to improve its quality so that, in future, that track will not have to be closed and trains can run more effectively on it.
"London trams to return in £160 million deal".
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