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Mr. Norris: I acknowledge that the hon. Lady has been stalwart in defending the interests of women passengers, and she raises a serious point about their safety. I know that she will want to reinforce the fact that although there have been worrying incidents on the system, the underground's safety record has measurably improved over the past five years because of steps that London Transport has taken and paid for to make the system safer. LRT recognises that unless people feel safe on the system they will not use it. I know that the hon. Lady would not want to create the impression that passengers on the system are unsafe. Statistically they are safer on the system than in the streets up top.
Ms Jackson: I accept that, but I hope that the Minister will agree that I was describing one type of transport on the network at one particular time--night. Statistical improvements, moreover, mean nothing to a woman who may be raped when attempting to travel on the underground. Statistics meant nothing to one of my constituents whose son was killed in an accident on the underground.
Ms Jackson: The Minister knows who I am talking about. She will be convinced to her dying day that her son's life could have been saved if there had been a member of staff standing on the platform, or if there had been any means of halting the train or summoning help.
There is still room for a great deal of improvement.The most immediately recognisable and reassuring form of improvement would be an increase in staffing at certain hours on the underground.
Despite its pronouncements, London Underground has not done enough yet to make its services accessible to people with disabilities. I can understand the difficulties, but there is a need for major investment, and the Government's private finance initiative will not produce the investment necessary to modernise the system or make it accessible to all Londoners wanting to travel on it.
The PFI, as devised and structured by the Government, is the Government's way of opening the back door to privatising a service which I believe must remain in the public sector. The Opposition believe that the only way to provide the right amount of investment for this system and all our public transport systems is via a genuine public-private partnership. The Government's PFI is not the way forward.
We strongly urge Conservative Members to look at our reasoned amendment with open minds. We all agree that London needs a modern, integrated public transport system, not just for the benefit of the people who live here but for the millions of tourists who come to this great capital city of ours. We need such a system for the economic prosperity and for the well-being of this great city. If we do not sort out our transport problems, companies looking to invest here may go elsewhere. The City might conceivably lose its primacy as well. Information technology and the Internet make it quite possible for financiers, bankers and people who make money by moving it around to relocate their businesses in one of Europe's other capital cities. So a decent transport system for the capital is a vital economic and national necessity.
Mr. David Congdon (Croydon, North-East):
I have listened carefully to the debate. I tried to understand exactly the arguments that the hon. Member for Hampstead and Highgate (Ms Jackson) was advancing, but I am not sure that I am any the wiser in determining exactly where she and her right hon. and hon. Friends stand. The hon. Lady talked about a partnership between the public and private sectors. It was to be noted, however, that whenever the private sector was mentioned, the reference was disparaging. In those circumstances,I am not sure why the private sector would wish to invest.
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Minister. Unfortunately, I was unable to listen to the whole of his speech. I heard, however, a tour de force on London's transport system. My only disappointment arose out of my hope that he would give us a potted history of each and every station on the network. I am sure that, on another
occasion, before he leaves the House, he will do so. I am sure that such a presentation would be fascinating. It would enhance his contribution, which has already been excellent, to transport in our great capital.
Mr. Tim Smith:
I am sure that the speech of my hon. Friend the Minister was a tour de force. Would not it have been a tour d'horizon if he had covered all the underground stations?
Mr. Congdon:
That is true. I welcome my hon. Friend's comment.
The hon. Member for Hampstead and Highgate commented on problems that stem from a lack of investment in London Underground. Since the early 1990s, however, investment has increased significantly. When I listen to debates about the underground system and talk of a lack of investment, it seems to be suggested that problems have arisen only since 1979. I remind the hon. Lady that the Conservative party was in power for only four of the 15 years from 1964 to 1979. What were the levels of investment in the underground service during the dark years of Labour government? During those years there was little money in the kitty for anything and the then Chancellor of the Exchequer had to go running to the International Monetary Fund, begging bowl in hand.
That has been the pattern of investment in the London underground system. When the economic climate has become difficult, money has not been forthcoming. That is why the private finance initiative is so important, especially to a service that is as capital intensive as London Underground.
As a London Member, I am only too well aware of the importance of the underground system to Londoners; as a Member from a Croydon constituency, I am aware of how regrettable it is--I am sure that my hon. Friend the Minister will take due note of this--that the system never managed to penetrate beyond Crystal palace towards Croydon. Indeed, it never reached Crystal palace. Some say that that was because of geological reasons. I am not so sure.
I want to illustrate the importance of the underground system to Londoners. There being no underground stations in my constituency, I recognise how crucial the system is to the transport system as a whole in our great capital.
In transport debates, there is always an argument about whether people should use their cars and whether there should be a congestion tax. That is what we heard from the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Mr. Chidgey). It leads to a sterile debate about either public transport or the private car. There is a lack of understanding of the crucial role of each in a city such as London.
In the Croydon area, the car is crucial in getting to the city centre. The train is vital in travelling from Croydon into central London. The tube is vital in getting about central London. I have always believed that different transport systems have different roles to play. The crucial role of public transport is to get a large number of passengers from A to B, but such a system will never be able to satisfy the myriad peculiar journeys that many people make, especially outside peak travelling hours.The sooner some Opposition Members recognise the key role of the car, the better. They should then put public transport in its proper context.
In London, and especially in south London, my colleagues have not been arguing for more investment in the road network. Instead, they have been arguing for investment in the rail network, including the underground system. As London Members, we recognise the need to ensure that we have a first-class underground system that is able to meet Londoners' needs.
I am never too clear whether too much priority is given to grandiose projects at the expense of some basic infrastructure when it comes to investment in the underground system. The hon. Member for Hampstead and Highgate mentioned important, but unglamorous, issues such as signalling and track maintenance. London Transport needs to get the investment balance absolutely right between large projects, such as the Jubilee line extension or other major investments and extensions, and bread-and-butter improvements to the basic infrastructure.
I draw my hon. Friend the Minister's attention to the situation at Victoria station. It is a crucial station on the network used by Croydon residents. There are excellent rail links from East Croydon station to Victoria, but standing on the Victoria line platform during the morning rush hour is a pretty hazardous experience. There are difficulties if one tube train does not come in immediately after the other.
I understand that the main impediment to achieving a fast throughput of tube trains is the lack of very modern signalling that can introduce built-in intelligence into the system. More antiquated signalling systems tend, unfortunately, to be the norm on the network. It is surely important to be able to maximise the benefits of the massive investment in tunnels by ensuring that sufficient tube trains pass through the system, especially at peak times, so that any dangers to passengers may be avoided.
My plea is to ensure that the balance is right between grandiose projects and bread-and-butter projects.I understand, of course, London Transport management's pressing for big schemes, but more minor projects may be neglected.
I argue--this might be controversial, but I make no apology for that--that ensuring that track is absolutely right and that the signalling system is the most modern available should take precedence over modernising tube stations. I accept that it is important to have modernised stations, but I do not believe that that is as fundamental as having the most up-to-date signalling system and ensuring that track is improved.
There has been significant investment in the underground system. I have mentioned the Jubilee line extension. The PFI involving Northern line trains is another example. In a sense, it becomes false to distinguish funding between London Underground and British Rail. I welcome the recent massive commitments to London in the forms of Thameslink 2000 and the channel tunnel rail link. Those projects demonstrate that the Government are serious about directing large sums into public transport, which is vital to the life-blood of our great capital.
Given the history of capital investment being turned on and off like a tap depending on the state of the economy, surely Opposition Members should welcome the PFI with open arms. It provides an opportunity to secure a continuing high level of investment in a vital infrastructure. In a sense, of course, the Bill is a tidying-up measure to remove one or two anomalies in London Transport's powers. I am surprised, however, that it has not been welcomed by Opposition Members.
As I have said, I listened with care to the hon. Member for Hampstead and Highgate. It seems that the Opposition are concerned that the Bill might lead to the privatisation of London Underground. I have no problems with that.I do not care who runs the system as long as it is run well and provides a first-class service for Londoners.As I understand it, however, the Bill is not about privatisation. We may be able to return to that issue on another occasion because it is certainly worth considering.
I was intrigued by some of the proposals that are in train--pardon the pun--for London Underground. I was especially interested in the discussion about using cables alongside the network. The hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Hill) talked about using cables for various activities. Putting fibre-optic cable alongside the underground track is an excellent suggestion. Surely that would be far better than digging up the road to lay the cables that the Labour party seems to consider so important to our infrastructure. If the Bill provides the possibility for such developments, it should be supported.
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