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Mr. Norris: Better than Paris. I know that the hon. Lady has not been in her job long. I recommend that she obtain a copy of that survey, which could make extremely embarrassing reading for the Labour party, and I caution her not to make statements about the paucity of provision in London before reading that objective assessment of the quality of the system.
Mr. Norris: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will allow me to continue, if I may.
Mr. Norris: I will give way to the hon. Lady as I am quoting her.
Ms Jackson: I am grateful to the Minister for pointing out my error. Does he agree that although the opinion did not begin in the Evening Standard, the newspaper certainly splashed it in banner headlines over that evening's edition, so it was clearly a view with which the newspaper probably agreed?
Mr. Norris: Stewart Steven, when he was editor of the Evening Standard, told me when I complained to him about the mild petulance of one of his editorials:
- "Steve, my entire readership is hanging from a strap on your system when they read my paper. If I tell them what I know to be the case, which is that it is the best system in the world, they will never believe me and, more to the point, they will never buy my paper."
I have always admired Mr. Steven--he is an excellent journalist and he was a superb editor of an always readable paper--but I let him make his headlines in his own way.
The important point is that I am determined to ensure that we base our opinions on objective evidence. I am not in the business of decrying London or its transport system because it is important to establish London not only as the finest city in the world, which it is beyond peradventure, but as the city with the best international links to and from it--that, too, was a conclusion of the survey--and the best transport links within it. That is the reality, and Labour Members would do well to remember it. They should also not be quite so free in their denigration of London. It ill behoves hon. Members, many of whom represent London seats, to degrade the reputation of what is in fact one of our greatest national assets.
I want to make a technical point. The hon. Lady mentioned pumping, and she was right: there is a huge operation on the underground which daily pumps out the millions of gallons of water which comes into the system, as it does into any subterranean structure. The hon. Lady said that because of the rising water table in London the problem is likely to become worse and then suggested that, because it would not be possible to stick an advertising hoarding down the side of such a pump,the private sector would somehow not be interested. She misses the point. There is every virtue in taking such an operation and ensuring that it is put out to public tender so that we can see whether the private sector might be able to perform that vital role on behalf of London Underground in a more efficient and less expensive way than London Transport is currently able to do. Hon. Members do not have to rely on my words, because that is exactly the attitude that London Transport takes.
My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, North-East, in his interesting speech, referred to the subject of fares. I pay tribute to the former Greater London council, which was far-sighted in introducing the travelcard. My hon. Friend was right to say that that has been of lasting benefit to Londoners and I am delighted to confirm that, as ever,it remains central to our ticketing policy. I fear, however, that my hon. Friend was quite wrong in what he said about the consequences of the Fares Fair policy. I have never denigrated the ambitions of those who introduced that policy, who no doubt believed that such a policy would result in improved ridership and reduced congestion. It did the former, but not the latter. The tragedy is that the additional journeys made on the underground were by people who were not transferring from cars: they were simply additional riders.
My hon. Friend was right to say that the consequence of a great lowering of fares on the underground is that the major recipients are the millions of Londoners who already use the system. They will no doubt be grateful. However, if we are looking for an efficient use of public funds, that is not the way to go about it.
The Bill is a modest measure--a limited but important one, which while not affecting the fundamental role of London Transport will enable it more effectively to harness the talents, skills, enterprise and finance of the private sector in a way that any sensible Londoner will wish to encourage.
Question put, That the amendment be made:--
The House divided: Ayes 154, Noes 185.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly negatived.
AYES
Ainger, Nick
Allen, Graham
Alton, David
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)
Armstrong, Hilary
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy
Ashton, Joe
Austin-Walker, John
Barnes, Harry
Barron, Kevin
Battle, John
Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret
Beith, Rt Hon A J
Benn, Rt Hon Tony
Bennett, Andrew F
Berry, Roger
Betts, Clive
Blunkett, David
Brown, N (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Burden, Richard
Byers, Stephen
Caborn, Richard
Callaghan, Jim
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Campbell-Savours, D N
Canavan, Dennis
Chidgey, David
Chisholm, Malcolm
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Dr David (South Shields)
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cox, Tom
Darling, Alistair
Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral)
Davies, Chris (L'Boro & S'worth)
Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l)
Denham, John
Dewar, Donald
Dixon, Don
Dobson, Frank
Dowd, Jim
Eastham, Ken
Etherington, Bill
Fatchett, Derek
Faulds, Andrew
Flynn, Paul
Foster, Rt Hon Derek
Foster, Don (Bath)
Fyfe, Maria
George, Bruce
Gerrard, Neil
Godman, Dr Norman A
Godsiff, Roger
Golding, Mrs Llin
Gordon, Mildred
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grocott, Bruce
Gunnell, John
Hall, Mike
Hanson, David
Heppell, John
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hoey, Kate
Home Robertson, John
Hood, Jimmy
Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A)
Howarth, George (Knowsley North)
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)
Hughes, Roy (Newport E)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark)
Illsley, Eric
Jackson, Glenda (H'stead)
Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H)
Jamieson, David
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O)
Keen, Alan
Kennedy, Charles (Ross,C&S)
Khabra, Piara S
Kilfoyle, Peter
Kirkwood, Archy
Lestor, Joan (Eccles)
Lewis, Terry
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)
Loyden, Eddie
Lynne, Ms Liz
McLeish, Henry
McWilliam, John
Madden, Max
Maddock, Diana
Mahon, Alice
Marek, Dr John
Maxton, John
Michael, Alun
Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute)
Milburn, Alan
Miller, Andrew
Morgan, Rhodri
Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Murphy, Paul
Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)
O'Brien, William (Normanton)
Olner, Bill
Pike, Peter L
Pope, Greg
Powell, Ray (Ogmore)
Prentice, Bridget (Lew'm E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Primarolo, Dawn
Quin, Ms Joyce
Raynsford, Nick
Rendel, David
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Ruddock, Joan
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Short, Clare
Simpson, Alan
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Chris (Isl'ton S & F'sbury)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Soley, Clive
Spearing, Nigel
Spellar, John
Steel, Rt Hon Sir David
Stevenson, George
Strang, Dr. Gavin
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Touhig, Don
Tyler, Paul
Wallace, James
Wareing, Robert N
Watson, Mike
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Wilson, Brian
Winnick, David
Wright, Dr Tony
Mr. Joe Benton and
Mr. Eric Martlew.
NOES
Alexander, Richard
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)
Amess, David
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)
Atkins, Rt Hon Robert
Baker, Rt Hon Kenneth (Mole V)
Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset)
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Bates, Michael
Batiste, Spencer
Bellingham, Henry
Beresford, Sir Paul
Biffen, Rt Hon John
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Booth, Hartley
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bowis, John
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Sir Graham
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Ian (South Dorset)
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln)
Carrington, Matthew
Carttiss, Michael
Chapman, Sir Sydney
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ru'clif)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Congdon, David
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John
Couchman, James
Cran, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)
Day, Stephen
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Devlin, Tim
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen
Dover, Den
Dunn, Bob
Eggar, Rt Hon Tim
Elletson, Harold
Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Evennett, David
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Fishburn, Dudley
Forman, Nigel
Forth, Eric
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Fox, Rt Hon Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
Fry, Sir Peter
Gale, Roger
Gallie, Phil
Gill, Christopher
Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Grylls, Sir Michael
Hague, Rt Hon William
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archibald
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Hampson, Dr Keith
Hargreaves, Andrew
Harris, David
Hawkins, Nick
Hawksley, Warren
Heald, Oliver
Hendry, Charles
Hill, James (Southampton Test)
Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)
Hunter, Andrew
Jack, Michael
Jessel, Toby
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Jones, Robert B (W Hertfdshr)
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knapman, Roger
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Rt Hon Greg (Derby N)
Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)
Knox, Sir David
Kynoch, George (Kincardine)
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Legg, Barry
Lester, Sir James (Broxtowe)
Lidington, David
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
MacKay, Andrew
Madel, Sir David
Maitland, Lady Olga
Malone, Gerald
Mans, Keith
Marlow, Tony
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Mates, Michael
Mills, Iain
Moate, Sir Roger
Monro, Rt Hon Sir Hector
Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Needham, Rt Hon Richard
Neubert, Sir Michael
Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Nicholls, Patrick
Norris, Steve
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley
Oppenheim, Phillip
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, James
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Pickles, Eric
Porter, David (Waveney)
Powell, William (Corby)
Rathbone, Tim
Redwood, Rt Hon John
Renton, Rt Hon Tim
Riddick, Graham
Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)
Sackville, Tom
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian
Shepherd, Sir Colin (Hereford)
Sims, Roger
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Speed, Sir Keith
Spencer, Sir Derek
Spicer, Sir James (W Dorset)
Sproat, Iain
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Stephen, Michael
Stern, Michael
Streeter, Gary
Sweeney, Walter
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Thurnham, Peter
Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)
Trend, Michael
Trotter, Neville
Twinn, Dr Ian
Viggers, Peter
Waldegrave, Rt Hon William
Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Waller, Gary
Wells, Bowen
Whitney, Ray
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Ann
Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Wolfson, Mark
Wood, Timothy
Yeo, Tim
Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Mr. Derek Conway and
Mr. Patrick McLoughlin.
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