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Mr. Freeman: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for stating the position precisely. Comments were invited to clarify the position for the convenience of the House. It is for the House of Commons Commission and for the appropriate corresponding body in the other place to consider any draft contract between a House and a prospective buyer--a privatised owner--and to satisfy itself that a contract meets its requirements. It is not for Government but for the House of Commons Commission to decide how the matter should be approved. It is not a matter for me as the responsible Minister.
Sir Patrick Cormack: To clarify further, would it not be entirely within the jurisdiction of the House of Commons Commission to decide not to put the work to HMSO it if were privatised and the Commission did not approve of the person who was going to take it over?
Mr. Freeman: Of course, my hon. Friend is right.
The value of the business done with Parliament, including the statutory publications, is about 10 per cent. of turnover. That is significant and important. However, it is wholly in the power of the House of Commons authorities and the authorities in the other place to decide what is needed--what the contract is, the price requirements, the standards of service required. As the Minister responsible for the Stationery Office, I wish it not only to do its present business but for its privately owned successor to continue to do that business. It is important and prestigious business. It is profitable, but it will doubtless become less so as the House controls the prices of the publications even better.
I apologise if I have not covered all the points that the House would have expected me to cover. If there are such points, my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary will deal with them in his winding-up speech.
In summary, HMSO faces an uncertain financial future. It has lost a number of jobs, which I regret. The reasons for that include its being untied from Departments, which can procure their printing and publishing requirements not only from the public but from the private sector. HMSO needs to become more efficient. It will have to lose more jobs. I believe that we can create more jobs than would otherwise have been the case by transferring its ownership to the private sector, allowing it to borrow and to operate freely. I know from the staff I have met that it will do so successfully. I urge the House to support the Government amendment.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris):
Nine hon. Members wish to catch my eye and the debate must end by 10 pm, so I plead for shortish speeches.
Mr. Michael J. Martin (Glasgow, Springburn):
I shall try to be brief, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
I have listened to the speeches of my right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Foster) and of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, and I heard some Conservative Members, appropriately, supporting their Minister. I ask them to support the valuable services that the House receives from the parliamentary press. As Back Benchers, we must always point out that we get a good service from it. It is not a privatisation in the normal sense of the word. If we make the wrong decision about this facility, we will lose some of our powers as Back Benchers.
My hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow(Mr. Dalyell) is here and intervened earlier. We all appreciate his valuable probing over the years, which has benefited Back Benchers. The way in which he approaches Ministers has been an inspiration to us all. He would not be able to probe and question Ministers in that way but for the facilities extended by Hansard. When Parliament finishes at 3 am, Hansard is ready for us first thing the following day so that we can find out exactly what Ministers and other hon. Members have said.
As a Committee Chairman--other hon. Members who chair Committees will know this, too--I know that, if Hansard is not available, there is usually a point of order to say that it is not available and that hon. Members want it to ensure that they can conduct themselves properly during that sitting of the Committee. There are no two ways about it; it is a very valuable service.
It is also a valuable service to people outside Parliament. The moment that parliamentary publications and important papers become available in, or are made public through, the House, they are available in other major cities in the United Kingdom. We are talking not only about printing but about a successful distribution facility. If we are to have open government, it is important that that service should be available.
I have not had the privilege of visiting the Bermondsey printing facility. I dealt with the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster when he was a Transport Minister, and I know that, when he gives assurances, he gives them in good faith. However, if a private printer takes over and in
good faith signs a contract--however iron-clad--with the House or the Minister, and goes out of business or into liquidation, we may lose not only the printing facility but an important storage facility. If we are to get our papers in good time, it is important that we should have a storage facility. We all know about London's transportation difficulties. If the storage facility was in another part of London, the heavy traffic could cause delays in getting our papers. Once we have lost those facilities, although we may take the contract away from that printer, our storage facility assets could be lost and gone for ever. Back Benchers should always argue that we have an excellent facility and we should not lose it.
This is an important debate and other hon. Members want to speak. I shall ask a series of questions. If they cannot be answered tonight, I hope that replies will be given in due course. First, will the recent reductions in the cover price of Hansard be jeopardised by the Government's proposal? On small print runs, would the cost of Select Committee reports and the Standing Committee Hansard have to rise? Would the present policy of supplying libraries with copies at discounted prices continue?
Would those documents be available to hon. Members at the same time as they are now? Would they be available in all parts of the United Kingdom at the same time as they are available in London? Where would the House store those documents, and how would it distribute them? On confidentiality, HMSO's staff sign the Official Secrets Act 1911. Would private companies ensure the same confidentiality? Who would answer to the House if hon. Members were dissatisfied with the service provided? Has privatisation of the printing of parliamentary publications been successful anywhere in the world?
Mr. Patrick Thompson (Norwich, North):
I am grateful to speak briefly in the debate, because we have had more than one opportunity in the past few months to talk about the future of HMSO. This is an opportunity for me to talk mainly about the concerns of my constituents. I have had a chance to meet some of them in Norwich within the past fortnight and I should therefore like to explain to my right hon and hon. Friends on the Front Bench exactly what is worrying some of the employees of HMSO. I hope that the Minister will be able to give me some answers.
Although the issue involves a serious political debate about privatisation versus nationalisation, from which I am not trying to hide, the main concern of my constituents in Norwich, North is about jobs and security in the future. It is no secret that job insecurity is still a political issue. My constituents are concerned about their future--I do not think that there will be any disagreement about that in the debate--and I must therefore make those concerns the top priority in my short speech.
That fear about the future makes the issue involved difficult, and it is why guarantees cannot be given. I gather that during the past 15 years--I will be corrected
if I am wrong--the number of jobs at HMSO has halved. As we have already heard from my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, a forecast was made in 1994 that a further 30 per cent. of jobs would be lost.
Mr. Eric Martlew (Carlisle):
That is not the figure.
Mr. Thompson:
I have read that that was the figure, but if I have not got the details right, someone else will put that right in his speech. The fact is that the trend is towards a decline in the number of jobs available. I want to discuss the figures as they are; I do not want to select or distort them in any way.
If, as my right hon. Friend has said, the job opportunities in my constituency and in other parts of the country will increase as a result of privatisation or any other change, I would be foolhardy simply to oppose it because of fears that may have been expressed. It is important to look at the opportunities and to discuss the issues on their merits.
I have heard the concerns of my constituents, and at the end of my speech I shall retail exactly what they are. I am sure that those concerns will be the subject of cross-party agreement and I hope that the Minister will try to answer them to my satisfaction and that of my constituents.
8.13 pm
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