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Sir Archibald Hamilton (Epsom and Ewell): May I congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend and the Government on the speed with which the two statements have been made following the SEAC recommendation? Does he agree that the comments from the Labour party, both new and old, demonstrate that Labour is certainly not the farmer's friend? Does he accept that the deboning of carcases over 30 months old will hit the dairy industry in particular, as it is normally dairy cows that are slaughtered beyond the 30-month period? Has he considered the impact of that on the price that will be paid for those redundant cows and what help can he offer the dairy industry in particular on the impact of that?
Mr. Hogg: On the first part of my right hon. Friend's question, I shall practise the same self-denying ordinance as my right hon. Friend. On the question of dairy cows, my right hon. Friend is correct in saying that frequently dairy cows over the age of 30 months are processed for beef. However, he will also have noticed that we are not prohibiting the use of dairy cows over the age
of 30 months for beef, but merely stipulating that they must be sold in a deboned state--the deboning taking place in plants licensed by the Ministry.
Mr. Paul Tyler (North Cornwall): May I remind the Minister that in a debate in the House on 13 July last year I specifically asked his colleague, the Minister for Food, whether she was satisfied with the integrity of the scientific advice on which the Government were operating? Will he be more specific this afternoon than the hon. Lady was then in answer to two specific questions? First, I noticed that his statement refers to the risk from eating beef as being extremely small.By contrast, the chief medical officer refers to bovine products. Can the Minister distinguish between the two and what advice is given in each case? Secondly, I noticed his reference to support mechanisms. Is he prepared to assure the House, the country and the industry that he and his Ministry take full responsibility for the consequences of their previous advice, including the financial implications?
Mr. Hogg: I have great confidence in the integrity of the scientific advice that we have received. I have confidence in it now and I have always had confidence in it. It merits our confidence. As for what the chief medical officer said with regard to beef products, I adopt and repeat it.
Mr. John Greenway (Ryedale): Is not the gist of what we have been told this afternoon that there is no less reason to have confidence in British beef today or tomorrow than there was yesterday? I regret, however, that that is not how the great British press will see it. There is likely to be a calamitous effect on British beef farmers, many of whom have never had a single BSE-affected cow in their herds. Will my right hon. and learned Friend, therefore, reassure the House this afternoon so that we can reassure our farmers tomorrow and this weekend that he will not hesitate to move swiftly to support the market?
Mr. Hogg: The market will fall only if there is a serious lack of confidence in beef. That depends upon the judgment that the public make about the quality and safety of British beef and beef products. That is why my right hon. Friend and I have come promptly to the House to make the two statements that we have made and to tell the House that the best opinion that we have is that beef and beef products can be eaten with confidence. If the public accept that advice, there will be no damage to the market, but, as I made plain in my statement, there are mechanisms within the common agricultural policy that can be brought into play if there is damage.
Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington): Has the Minister seen a transcript of an interview that the chief veterinary officer, Mr. Keith Meldrum, gave on the "World in Action" programme last November in which he stated that it is possible that as many as 500 animals with BSE may be entering the food chain every week, albeit subject to the removal of specified offal? He said also that tissue other than the specified offal may contain "a low level"--that is a direct quote; I checked the tapes today--of BSE.
We know from interviews conducted during the "World in Action" piece and from footage filmed by secret cameras that animals that were cleared by inspectors at auction markets in Mold and at Beeston in Cheshire were purchased by Granada Television--at its expense--tested by official veterinary officers, and found to contain BSE. We know, on the basis of what we saw and according to the interview transcripts, that the system is not working. How can we sure that the current arrangements will be tightened to work effectively when we have been told repeatedly over the years that the present system is policed properly?
Mr. Hogg:
The hon. Gentleman is not fixing on the critical point. I do not dispute the fact that a number of cattle with sub-clinical BSE conditions have got into the slaughterhouse--that is precisely why the SBO controls are in place. If those controls are carried out thoroughly, they will remove the organs that contain the infected material. For that and other reasons, I believe that the British people can consume beef with confidence.
Mr. Bill Walker (North Tayside):
Does my right hon. and learned Friend accept that human beings indulge in very few risk-free activities and that that is true of what we eat? It is in the interests of our very good agricultural industry that we disseminate the message that the measures that are being put in place have the same effect as control measures in other areas. For example, buses, trains and aircraft crash, but we have introduced measures to control the transport industry in order to promote public confidence. That is what the Government are doing today.
Mr. Hogg:
I am grateful for the support that my hon. Friend has given to the Government's proposals, which are based on the recommendations of the Spongiform Encephalopathy Advisory Committee and the chief medical officer. It is true that few activities are wholly safe. However, according to the advice that we have received and in light of today's announcement, British beef may be eaten with confidence.
Mr. William Ross (East Londonderry):
Does the Minister recall that, in answering a question from me in November, he said that although 160,000 cattle were found to be infected with BSE only 23 could be broadly classed as beef animals? Does that mean that BSE is largely a disease of the milk herd? If that is so, will the Minister follow up the question that my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth) asked in a previous exchange and consider the possibility of a test? Will he examine also the effects of scrapie on the disease, as I believe that there has been one trans-species jump already?
When considering the question of beef imports into the United Kingdom, will the Minister examine closely the cross-border trade between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic? Beef comes both from Northern Ireland through the Republic and from the Republic through Northern Ireland and into the United Kingdom market.If the situation worsens, what steps will the Government take to eliminate the disease once and for all--bearing in mind the fact that that cannot be done cheaply?
Mr. Hogg:
The hon. Gentleman is right to talk of 160,000 or so confirmed cases and he is also right to say that the great majority of cases are found in the dairy industry, not in beef herds, although there are some cases in beef herds. The hon. Gentleman asked whether there is any probability of a live test becoming available. I regret that there is not in the near future. I wish that there was, but there is not and I must not hold out any prospect of one.
The hon. Gentleman asked about the relationship of scrapie to the condition of BSE. One of the explanations advanced as to the cause of BSE is scrapie, which is a condition in sheep, being fed into the cattle population in the feed rations. The hon. Gentleman asked an important question about the elimination of BSE from the herd. That is precisely why SEAC has recommended that we should no longer feed, to any farm animals, rations with any mammalian content against the possibility that there is cross-contamination, for example, between pigs and poultry and cattle, either on the farm or in the feed mills.
Sir Hector Monro (Dumfries):
Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that, since 1989 when the offal controls were introduced--I welcome the strengthening of those controls today--the risk to the general public has been virtually nil? Does he further agree that MAFF, the Scottish Office and the Welsh Office have acted extremely quickly whenever the scientific advice has required them to do so? Will my right hon. and learned Friend watch the market price very closely, because I fear that there will be a substantial drop in the immediate future?
Mr. Hogg:
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend.He has a great knowledge of these matters from his time in Government and otherwise. He is correct that the risk is extremely small and that has now been stated on several occasions. We have always followed the scientific advice and we shall continue to do so. We will indeed watch the market price with care, as I said in my statement.
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