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Mr. Stuart Randall (Kingston upon Hull, West): Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Cash: No, I have only a few minutes left.
In order to achieve that position we must renegotiate the treaty, and say that we shall not accept monetary union. Not merely on the opt-out, but during the intergovernmental conference and before the general election--in other words, in our manifesto--we must state that we shall not go down the route of monetary union. That is the logic of the position. And in doing that we shall be able to wrong-foot the Labour party in the general election.
We have been trampled on by the European institutions, and we shall not tolerate it. Our sense of pride and our nationhood have been infringed over and over again, and we shall put up with it no longer. It is time for the House and for the Conservative party, which, as Disraeli said,
Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West):
Anyone walking into the Chamber and seeing the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Cash) on his feet would know precisely what issue is being discussed. I suspect that, regrettably, anyone who came in here and saw the usual suspects lining up on either side would know what subject we were debating.
If the hon. Gentleman really thinks that the issues surrounding the European Union will win the election for the Conservative party, he deceives himself. I do not want to sound complacent, but frankly, I doubt whether even if the Archangel Gabriel declared for the Conservative cause at the moment it would assist the Tories much in saving the general election--but be that as it may.
The debate has been fascinating, for several reasons, one of which is the fact that we seem to be driving everyone out. If we cannot even raise enough interest in the House in discussing the issue, how on earth are we to arouse people's interest outside in the country? Both sides have locked horns over the issue and the area has become sterile, as has the whole debate. Indeed, one could hardly describe it as a debate in the true sense.
I find the debate fascinating, partly because of the attendance levels. There are more Members on the Government Benches than on the Opposition Benches, and it is clear--the way in which the Foreign Secretary dealt with interventions showed that he recognises it too--that the European Union is revealing the deepest divisions that I have ever seen in the Conservative party.
The interesting thing is that the divisions are ideological--not simply matters of opinion, but ideological. The right wing opposes the Government's policy on the EU, and the left wing of the Conservative party is attempting to support the Government, although, if I may say so, not very vocally or successfully. That is the Conservative party's fundamental problem. Most Conservatives who oppose the Government's policies on the European Union are also politically opposed to the Prime Minister. That adds to the problems. The Tory party is deeply divided. If the European Union is going to influence the general election, it will not be through discussion, or its absence, of the issue but through the divisions in the Conservative party, which people will recognise.
Of course, Labour has its differences of opinion. The right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) laughs, but our differences are more like differences of opinion. They are not ideological divisions.
Mr. Redwood
indicated dissent.
Mr. Banks:
The right hon. Gentleman must allow that I know far more about the ideology and divisions of my party than him. If he honestly thinks that there is an ideological linkage between Bolsover, Chesterfield, Stepney and Newham, South he is an idiot and does not at all understand ideology. Our divisions are more generational than ideological. Our discussions do not pose any problems for the Labour party, either in opposition or in government.
I listened to the Secretary of State with great care when he said that the days of the nation state are not over.I agree--but they are numbered. Nationalism and religion have together been responsible for nearly every war in Europe and the rest of the world, and that remains so.
Mr. Cash:
What absolute nonsense.
Mr. Banks:
I defer to the hon. Gentleman because he is an expert on nonsense. Perhaps he could consider my speech, write to me and identify all the wars through history that have not had nationalism or religion as their root cause. That will remain so in future. The break-up of Yugoslavia was the result of a combination of nationalism and religion. The purpose of supranational bodies such as the European Union is to move us away from the narrow nationalism that has been the cause of so much suffering in Europe over the generations.
The Secretary of State also gave us his vision of three ways in which Europe could develop. First, he said that it could be a free association of nation states--the market concept. That is what the Conservative right wants--a loose market association of free nation states coming together to carve up the markets between them, with no further economic or monetary union or integration.
The rest of Europe is not prepared to accept that model. The Government can carry on whistling in the dark. They can wish, but it will not happen. Wishing is no way to achieve things. We are being left out of developments in Europe and they are laughing at us. We are becoming immaterial and insignificant in respect of events in Europe. It is the fault of the Conservative Government that we are not punching our weight in the European Union.
The Foreign Secretary talked about the federal Europe, which is the big bogey of the Conservative party.The definition of federalism in the Tory party lexicon is totally different from that in German politics. After all, federal Germany has a strong central state Government and strong local government though its lander. Britain is the most centralised state in Europe. I go further: we are the last fully functioning mediaeval state in Europe. We do not need lectures from the Conservative party, which has centralised our Government, criticising Germany or France and saying that they want a federal Europe that means more centralisation. We have centralisation: it is called the British state and it needs to be broken up.We need the sort of freedoms that they have in Germany through regional government and devolution. We do not have that and we desperately need it.
The last possibility mentioned by the Foreign Secretary was that of a multi-track Europe. Again that is nonsense, like our opt-outs, which are being proved to be nonsense. They were the fig leaves that the Prime Minister brought back to try to cover his embarrassment and the divisions in the Conservative party, and everyone knows that they are not working. They are not worth a bucket of cold spit or the paper on which they happen to be written. Most sensible people understand that.
A multi-track Europe cannot avoid being a two-tier, first and second class Europe. That is exactly what will happen. The right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Sir E. Heath) summed it up. When France, Germany and the Benelux countries start to decide, we can either go with them or stand outside wringing our
hands. Those are our only options. We have lost our sovereignty, but we are not prepared to acknowledge it and try to do something about the institutions of the European Union, where we can claim back sovereignty through the international bodies.
Conservative Members talk about the European Union as if it were imposed on us from Mars. Throughout their speeches, they denigrate the directly elected, accountable European Parliament. We try weakly, stupidly and ineffectively to defend our fast-disappearing parliamentary sovereignty. At the same time, we refuse to allow the European Parliament the power to exercise democratic control and influence over European Union institutions. It is the French and the Germans that want to give more power to the democratically elected European Parliament. While we in this Parliament complain that we are losing our powers, we are not prepared to give any additional powers to the European Union to try to claim back democratic accountability over European Union institutions. It is self-defeating nonsense.
Sir Terence Higgins (Worthing):
I welcome the White Paper, which, in its way, is an interesting and helpful document, but I join those who have complained, not least my right hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Sir E. Heath), about the lack of time for debate. Several hon. Members have abandoned hope of being called. On the point made by the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks), with television being relayed to Members' rooms, attendance has steadily declined. Members come up to one after a speech and say that they agreed or disagreed with it when the Chamber appeared to be empty.
I would have liked to have sufficient time to address in detail the points made by the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) who, in a way, epitomised the arguments on a referendum. I can only refer hon. Members to column 702 of Hansard on 13 February 1995, when I sought to rebut his arguments.
As I have other matters to cover, I shall make only three brief points on a referendum. First, the position that the Government have taken hitherto--that the question of a single currency will not arise for a long time and that, while there may or may not be a case for a referendum, the issue can be appropriately addressed at that time--is entirely sensible. Although I am fundamentally opposed to referendums, I was prepared to go along with it. I hope that, following the consideration that Cabinet is giving to the issue, they none the less will maintain that common- sense point of view.
"is a national party or it is nothing",
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