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8.26 pm
Mr. Stuart Randall (Kingston upon Hull, West): I have a feeling that tonight's debate and this period in our parliamentary history will be remembered as a dark age of nationalism. We have heard many speeches tonight, and it is frightening that there is still such strong nationalistic feeling in the country.
The people of this country are not as Euro-sceptic as the press--certainly this Parliament--suggests. Last week, when I spoke at a townswomen's guilds conference in Sheffield, we conducted a poll, whose results accurately mirrored those of national polls. It showed that people are not Euro-sceptic. They feel ignorant about Europe and its future development but, most important, they want to learn about Europe.
This debate, the White Paper and the IGC are all about change. We have been going through the change from empire to Commonwealth and from Commonwealth to Europe. That is the path we are on. In addition, we have been experiencing an immense change in our industrial, commercial and economic structures.
The word "globalisation" was used several times earlier. Before I came to the House, I was in business and industry for 25 years. I have witnessed some of those developments, and they are extraordinary. Businesses are restructuring in Europe at a high rate. They do not even recognise national boundaries any more. We must follow the example of the banking industry, trade associations and trade unions, which, like other institutions, are becoming global. The governance of Europe must become global--I cannot conceive of its being out of touch with current economic structures and developments.
In addition to those changes--which I believe we must address as politicians--there is the matter of peace, because peace and prosperity go hand in hand. There is a great prize to be gained from European union and co-operation. In the next 10 years, I believe that we shall see the European Union develop into the most powerful bloc in the world. It will be probably twice the size of America, and I believe that the World bank will be forced to relocate from that country to Europe.
We have no alternative but to respond to the irresistible globalising forces. The Government have prepared a White Paper for the Turin intergovernmental conference which I would call a standstill paper: it does nothing other than bind the Conservative party together. I donot believe for a moment--I am not pleased to say it--that the paper will be taken seriously by our fellow European Union members.
The Foreign Secretary referred today to the strong link between Her Majesty's Government and the French Government, but I do not believe that it exists. Hours after the White Paper was published, the French Prime Minister, Alain Juppe, attended a conference in Paris and told the 40 right-wing parties in attendance that he expected to see a two-speed Europe that was dominated by a restricted circle of member states who supported the French-German position on future directions and developments in Europe. He raised the same point in the French National Assembly, where France's policy enjoys a broad consensus.
The paradox is that the French and German position presents the Government with two options: either they must move away from their static position as stated in the White Paper or they must become more progressive.
If they do not do that, the Government will be left behind in a two-speed Europe. I cannot conceive how that would be in the national interest, and I ask the Minister to confirm that the Government do not want that to occur.
I want Britain to take the lead in the IGC. We have heard about the relationship between France and Germany; I believe that we should get in between and play a stronger role in the interests of Europe and of this nation. Germany's prime concern is to set in concrete the timetable for a single currency. Germany is facing rising unemployment--the figure is approaching 5 million--and Helmut Kohl views the single currency, which will bring great benefits, as a way of reducing unemployment considerably: there is talk of a 2 million decrease by the end of the decade. The deutschmark is a haven for speculators, which increases its value and makes it difficult for Germany to export easily.
I want to raise a few points about the single currency in the short time left. I believe that the single market--the relevant legislation was introduced by the Conservative Government in 1986--has proved very successful. The growth rates are quite staggering. In 1992 the growth rate was 6 per cent.--I have only rough figures--the year after it was 9 or 10 per cent., and now it is 16 per cent. I refer hon. Members to the survey conducted by Andersen Consulting, which found immense support for the single currency in the business community. They are the people who will generate the growth in this country to finance our social policy. The funding of social policies is a key issue for all western Governments--it was the cause of the unrest in France in December.
As to making the EU work better, we must address the problem of ignorance and ensure that people are far more informed about and involved in the process. That did not occur with Maastricht. I believe that the European institutions should work better and that the Commission should become more accountable. I am happy for more powers to go to the European Parliament. We need to work on the Council of Ministers, but I believe that there is a joint role for the European and national Parliaments.
Mr. Michael Carttiss (Great Yarmouth):
I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham(Mr. Redwood). The White Paper devotes only 11 lines to the common fisheries policy. As the only Conservative Member who voted in December against accepting the European Commission's quota document--the Government lost that vote--I believe that it will be no surprise to hon. Members to learn that, although I wish to talk about a number of issues in the White Paper, I shall focus upon those lines in the document about quota hopping.
The White Paper states:
Hon. Members referred to that statement earlier in the debate, and I agree with it 100 per cent. It concludes:
What does it mean by that? Of course the treaty should be changed in order to reform the common fisheries policy. The Prime Minister of the United Kingdom was reduced--perhaps that is not a very nice word to use--to the level of the average saloon bar commentator--perhaps such commentators would not like me to use the word "reduced" either--when he described the decision of the European Court of Justice on the Spanish quota hoppers as "ludicrous". What will the Prime Minister do about it? What can he do, unless there are changes to the treaty?
The White Paper is deficient in several respects, but particularly when it says:
Those changes must occur. It is not simply a matter for the European Court of Justice. Many hon. Members have referred to that body, and the Government have stated their intention to seek some changes to it. If they succeed, I am sure that those changes would be very welcome.
I do not agree with some of my Eurosceptic colleagues who suggest that the decisions of the European Court of Justice should be ignored in this country.
No one can stand up in this Parliament and suggest that we should ignore laws that have been implemented as a result of international obligations into which we have entered. This Parliament, however, should decide that the treaties and our laws must be changed to enable us to avoid implementing decisions that we find have not been reached in accordance with what has been determined by the Council of Ministers. That is the point at issue, as the Minister of State knows only too well.
An hon. Member said that he did not take this White Paper seriously.
Mr. Nirj Joseph Deva (Brentford and Isleworth):
Is it not correct that the people of this country should be governed by laws passed in this House, the other place and the Queen in Council? If the European Court's laws infringe on those laws, the sovereignty of Parliament should take precedence.
Mr. Carttiss:
As I said, that is a matter that we must deal with in making changes in the treaties that have imposed those responsibilities on us. People talk as if the European Court of Justice existed of its own accord, but hon. Members have agreed in this Parliament to its jurisdiction. We are now discovering that the court is interpreting its jurisdiction in a manner that we never thought it would. That issue needs to be debated at length, but, at the end of it, I do not think that my hon. Friend and I would find ourselves far apart on the issues.
It is not for this Parliament to connive and acquiesce in a decision to let the European Court of Justice continue but to ignore its decisions. We must take action, as my hon. Friend the Member for Chingford (Mr. Duncan Smith) said, by passing a one-line Bill to change it.
Let us not forget the European Commission's adjudication on how the other European countries have failed to implement the fisheries policy. The European Commission report on fisheries policy says that Spain
The monitoring of trawlers and catch sizes presents
and direct checks on catches
The report says of France:
Reporting on Greece and Italy's application of the fishing policy, the European Commission said that they do not appear to have
This country is held up as the one that obeys the rules according to the standards of the European Commission.
What will the Government do in Turin to address those problems? I have no confidence in statements in the report that seek to identify a problem and then say:
Treaty changes are needed, and they must be sought.
There has been a lot of depression on this side of the House, and also among Opposition Members who do not share the view that we want an integrated Europe. The depression is related to the power of Germany and France.
The hon. Member for Newham, North-West(Mr. Banks) said that the French Government do not want to limit the powers of the European Parliament, but my understanding is that they are quite unequivocal in joining the British Government in limiting the powers of the European Parliament, letting it deal with the Commission, and preventing it from interfering with matters that should be dealt with in national Parliaments. I agree with the Government on that matter, and I have been convinced by my friends in the Gaullist party--who campaigned to vote no to Maastricht, incidentally--that France takes the same line on that issue as we do.
I am not too depressed, because, although we must not express an opinion on an election in a friendly country--but the European Union is becoming more integrated, and the partnership of our countries is becoming stronger--I feel able to express a view on the outcome of elections in member states, and to campaign in those countries for the election of candidates who hold views about their country's position in Europe that are similar to my views about the United Kingdom's position.
I look forward very much to the success ofMr. Lafontaine's Social Democrat party this weekend, when a quarter of the German population vote in regional elections. It appears that Mr. Lafontaine's party has captured a strain of opinion by which people are increasingly sceptical of the single currency, and Chancellor Kohl's determination to integrate us all in his vision of Europe. He is entitled to his opinion. He is entitled to express the view that Germany's future will be better--in terms of controlling the elements that in past times have been a focus for nationalism--if they are integrated into Europe.
"'Quota-hopping' has been a particular problem, not least because it prevents fishing communities from enjoying a secure benefit from national quotas, thereby undermining the whole intention of the quotas".
21 Mar 1996 : Column 581
"If Treaty changes are needed, we shall seek them".
"If Treaty changes are needed, we shall seek them".
"does not yet appear capable of meeting the challenges it should and will face in terms of enforcement."
21 Mar 1996 : Column 582
"considerable long-running difficulties"
"have not always been Spain's strong point."
"Strict enforcement of community rules is not perceived to be a priority of all the agencies involved."
"fully integrated into the control system".
"If Treaty changes are needed, we shall seek them."
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