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The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. David Davis): No, it was not him.
Mr. Carttiss: He did not? My time is up, so I cannot pursue that point. I wish the Government well in their endeavours, but I look for more action and less rhetoric when they get to Turin.
8.46 pm
Mr. Ray Whitney (Wycombe): I shall not pursue the thoughts of my hon. Friend the Member for Great Yarmouth (Mr. Carttiss), except to say that I hope that he will spare a thought, in his enthusiasm for taking part in elections in other European countries, for the prospects of a certain Anglo-French billionaire who is taking an active interest in our politics.
I welcome the thrust of the White Paper, particularly the Prime Minister's forward, in which he reminds us that the United Kingdom has to be
In paragraph 11, we are told:
We are then told--it is very important for some hon. Members on both sides of the House:
I think that that is extremely important, and I hope that my hon. Friends, in particular, will bear that admirable objective in mind.
Finally, just to mention the remaining bones of the White Paper that I think deserve approval, we are reminded that the IGC is
That "considered view" causes concern to those of us who are conscious that Britain must play a constructive part in Europe, because considered views--the cold, honest intellectual approach to this issue--have, sadly, for two or three years been singularly absent from our debates.
Those of us who are old stagers feel that this matter is like a classical Japanese Noh play, in which we all play our symbolic roles. Several of my hon. Friends and I play a symbolic role as the voice of reason and moderation, while the voice we hear from below the gangway is, sadly, not a clear one.
In politics, it is important to use words frankly and honestly. To me and to most people, the word "sceptic" implies doubt, uncertainty and questioning. From what we
have heard today and from similar previous jousts, there seems to be no doubt at all, only a determination that Europe is not for us. Of course, I reject that point of view. The vast majority of hon. Members reject it, and I believe that the vast majority of the population will reject it,as and when and if it is put to them fairly. I ask my colleagues to face up to the implications of what they are saying.
I am sure that it was inadvertent, but my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Thames(Mr. Lamont) misled the House on at least one point, if not many more. He referred to the speech made by Chancellor Kohl of West Germany at the university of Louvain on 2 February. My right hon. Friend quoted the Chancellor as saying:
I searched through the English text--I do not have the German text, and my German is not that good--but there is nothing in the statement that coincides in any way with the quotation attributed to the Chancellor by my right hon. Friend.
In fact, the German Chancellor, according to the English translation--said:
We might not believe what Chancellor Kohl says, but he says it in virtually every speech he makes. He is deeply conscious of the dangers of nationalism--who should not and would not be?
Chancellor Kohl has a point when he says that we should not take it for granted that the peace that has obtained in Europe for 50 years will last for ever.The example of Yugoslavia ought to remind us of the potential dangers. We too glibly accept the wonderful blessing that we have enjoyed since 1945 and, increasingly, since the European Community was created.
There are many points at which German and British interests coincide. Likewise, there are points at which French and British interests coincide. My right hon. and learned Friend the foreign Secretary and others referred to what Alain Juppe said. They said that it represented only one French position and that it could change, but the point is that, essentially, the French approach in many important spheres coincides with the instinctive British approach.
For example, in his speech last week, Mr. Juppe emphasised that the nation state was the basis on which the European Union should proceed. That coincides entirely with the title of the White Paper, "A Partnership of Nations". I therefore appeal to the anti-Europeans--not the Euro-sceptics--to have much more courage. There are many more points of view on the continent of Europe which echo and respond to our natural instincts than they seem to believe. That is certainly the case in the newer member countries such as Sweden. My message to the anti-Europeans is, "Trust yourselves, and trust us."
Buried just under the surface of what the right hon. Members for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore) and for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn), and what my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood), said is a fear of Germany and a belief that we can never live with Germany, never look it in the eye and never compete with it, and that only by devaluation can we live in the same ball park. I reject that, and our economic success over the past 10 or 15 years shows that we can have faith in ourselves.
There is work to be done, and there are huge gains to be made. For centuries, the essence of Europe has been, and it will continue to be, the balance between the three nations of Germany, France and Britain. Who could deny that there is a collaboration between Germany and France, but, if we have enough faith and belief in ourselves, the British can get in the ring. There will be times when Bonn or Berlin and London are together, and there will be times when London and Paris are together, but we can and should be involved. We owe it to our people to be there. The Prime Minister was right to say:
My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham made a powerful but deeply misguided speech as far as the question of a single currency is concerned. Everyone knows that the decision on a single currency is not to be taken yet. We can argue about whether it will be taken in two years or five years, although I think that it will be sooner rather than later. We do not have to take the decision yet, but we have to stay in the ring so that British interests are protected.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham told the Daily Mail that there will be a
That claim is wholly unjustified by any studies that have been undertaken, because the savings to the European nations as a whole will be in the order of $20 billion or $30 billion, and we shall benefit from lower interest rates. Above all, our own currency will not be vulnerable to raids from Mr. George Soros and other international financiers. Such stability will be of enormous benefit to our nation.
I know that many other hon. Members wish to speak, and I am grateful for having had the opportunity to do so. Let us have done with the painful two years of sloganising--
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris):
Order.
Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham):
This debate has been marked by perhaps the worst outburst of nationalism--from both sides of the House, let it be said--that I have heard in my two years as a Member of Parliament. It is a reflection of the tone set, alas, by the Government. If one reads the White Paper carefully, the verb that continually springs from the page is "oppose". If we are to play any part in any international body, a responsible British Government must have a positive, constructive agenda to offer. But, in a sense, a country that faces the problems that Britain faces--unemployment, social exclusion and great insecurity in so many sectors of its society and economy--will always produce that tinge of xenophobic or nationalist reaction. It has existed for hundreds of years. Daniel Defoe acknowledged it at the beginning of the 18th century when he said:
Exactly that language, from 300 years ago, is to be heard from Conservative Members today.
The problem that Britain faces is that it is not ready to acknowledge fully the modernisation that its institutions, economy and society require. The only positive
suggestion that I could find in the entire White Paper was that of a clause that would enhance protection for animals. My hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) is not in his place, but I support his suggestion that we should have more protection for animals in any future European treaty. I would also like--and I am clear about this--more protection for workers. The 20 million unemployed, who have had hardly a look-in in this debate, need some consideration. If Britain in the past 15 years had been a model country for employment, social justice and economic growth, the anti-Europeans would have a better case, but they and their ex-Ministers have presided over so much wanton destruction and have caused discord and disharmony in our society.
I was pleased that we heard the beginning of some honesty today. The right hon. Member for South Thanet (Mr. Aitken), when he greeted the Foreign Secretary's White Paper last week, used the "W" word--withdrawal. I also detected at the end of the speech of the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Thames (Mr. Lamont) the suggestion that he thought that other arrangements might have to be made. I would respect those who are anti-European if they came out of the closet and said, "Let's get out of Europe." They would find some elderly support--rhetorical and powerfully vocal support--from two or three Labour Members. That case can be made and I can make it intellectually, but I would like the British people to judge it. I invite the Europhobes and xenophobes on the Conservative Benches to make that case much more clearly.
The only four-letter word in the White Paper is "veto". A foreign policy based on a veto is not a foreign policy worthy of Britain or likely to have any real impact in international affairs. Last September, the Foreign Secretary made a speech at Chatham house to the Royal Institute of International Affairs. He said:
That is a new doctrine emerging from the Foreign Office. In the past, the task of a Foreign Secretary was to protect British influence and safeguard British interests. Indeed, the one followed consequentially from the other. A loss of influence meant a threat to British interests. If that doctrine, which I believe still holds true, is now overturned by the Administration, we need a new Foreign Secretary able to restore British influence and to protect British interests in Europe and in the heart of the world.
Germany has been the Banquo of the debate tonight.I am concerned because I know Germany. I like the country and its people, and I know something of its history. If that new super-nation state--with a gross domestic product twice that of Britain's and a population 20 per cent. bigger, with its satellite states and its maquiladoras in the cheap-labour countries to the east--is not fully integrated with Britain, France and the other member states of the European Union, it will go it alone. Germany is a democracy and the men who write about the fourth Reich in The Daily Telegraph and the Daily Mail should be ashamed of themselves. But Germany is also a nation state with its own economic, trade and foreign policy and, in due course, may have its own defence policy. I put it to the House that a state of that size and power, alone and disconnected in Europe, would be a danger.
British interest for 300 or 400 years has been based on having a stake in Europe. We have called it a balance of power. After 1815, we had a concert of nations and we have had other alliances. But we have never isolated ourselves from Europe--except, of course, in the 1920s and 1930s, and the descendants of those Tory politics of isolationism are, alas, growing in strength in the Conservative party today. That is why I feel passionately about this issue. The new isolationism is just another form of political protectionism, and there is one ineluctable consequence of political protectionism: economic protectionism.
There are voices in Europe saying that Britain is simply an offshore assembly plant for Japanese and Asian goods made by companies which come here thanks to our devalued pound, our very low wages and our nine laws which have taken away trade union rights. Why, those voices ask, should their jobs and economic interests be threatened? In the past two weeks, Korean and Taiwanese plants have opened in my constituency--I am glad of that connection between Rotherham and Asia--and those plants are there to sell to Europe.
"at the heart of the debate".
"The United Kingdom's role as a leading member of the European Union is vital to our national interests."
"If we were to press ideas which stand no chance of general acceptance, some others would seek to impose an integrationist agenda which would be equally unacceptable from our point of view. We would do better, therefore, to concentrate on achieving sensible amendments in the areas which have been identified for review."
"expected to last many months. It would plainly be wrong in such an exercise for any Government to tie its hands rigidly at the outset. Rather, we shall form a considered view, as the negotiations progress, of what outcome would best serve the overall interests of the United Kingdom."
"the day of the nation state is over."
"No one wants a centralised superstate. It does not and never will exist."
"The United Kingdom has to be at the heart of the debate".
"£10 billion tax bill for a single currency".
8.56 pm
"These are the Heroes who despise the Dutch, And rail at new-come Foreigners so much."
"occasionally, it may be appropriate to accept a loss of influence if that is the only way we can protect our interests".
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