House of Commons Hansard Debates for 22 Mar 1996 (pt 8)

Mr. Jenkin: I am grateful for the opportunity to discuss the issues that the amendments throw up. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will deal with the various points that have arisen during our discussion. They principally concern the confusion that arises between the type of land that is to be included within the powers of the Bill and what we wish to exclude. We have the rather confusing situation whereby we have to include the exclusions in the Bill. There is a certain amount of confusion about the overlap between the different types of land.

I return to the issue of woodland, because in my constituency, for example, there is a country park, which is part of the town of Colchester, called Highwoods country park. By no stretch of the imagination could anybody say that it is not woodland. We are asked to understand that land that is used as woodland is to be excluded. It is a slightly confusing definition, because if we asked the trees whether they are using the land as woodland, they would certainly say--if they were sentient beings and could talk--"Yes, we are using this as woodland because this is where we live." If it is to work, it is important that we clarify in the Bill what is in and what is out in terms of the land that we use.

Amendment No. 12, in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle (Mr. Leigh), which deals with sporting dogs and land used primarily for sporting purposes, raises a number of issues. I very much sympathise with the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton), who suggested that certain types of dog should be excluded from the Bill, because trying to designate the types of land used by sporting and working dogs seems to be a rather vain exercise. It is utterly absurd to suggest that the traditional activities of fox hunting, shooting with dogs or working with terriers somehow give rise to the problem that we are seeking to address, because the problem is much more associated with urban living. I sympathise with the views expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. Hargreaves), although I have to say that the problems of the urban dog apply just as much in the villages as in conurbations.

That brings me to my final point, and I would be most interested to hear from my hon. Friend the Minister on this issue. Local authorities already have quite significant powers to deal with dog fouling. Some local authorities use those powers to the full--Westminster council, for example, is a pioneer in keeping the streets clean of dog fouling--but others simply try to brush the problem away, because it is too complicated and requires too much manpower. Dog fouling often results in disputes between neighbours, because people often know the dog concerned and to whom it belongs, and there is a failure to enforce regulations that already exist.

Like my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, North (Mr. Thompson), I receive correspondence from constituents on this issue. Before we give massive further powers to local authorities to deal with this urgent problem, which affects many of my constituents--as my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle described, it is quite a sweeping reform--are we confident

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that they will be capable of exercising them effectively? What evidence do we have that they use the powers that they enjoy at the moment to the best effect?

Mr. Thomason: Does my hon. Friend agree that these provisions will supersede provisions at present contained in section 235 of the Local Government Act 1972, section 164 of the Public Health Act 1875, sections 12 and 15 of the Open Spaces Act 1906, sections 82 and 83 of the Public Health Acts Amendment Act 1907, section 41 of the Countryside Act 1968, section 1 of the Commons Act 1908, and a number of other provisions, and thereby simplify the law?

Mr. Jenkin: I should be delighted if the Bill radically simplifies the law, but I am concerned that we are expanding the scope. Byelaws that are easier to use are much easier to enact. We will presumably encourage local authorities to act against the concerns expressed to us by our constituents. Do local authorities use their present powers responsibly? That is all I ask.

Mr. Hargreaves: My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point: whether local authorities are exercising the powers already given to them, and whether those powers are sufficient. He raised the point whether, if we give them these sweeping and centralising powers, they would be exercised sensitively. That comes back to the point that we raised earlier.

Mr. Jenkin: Indeed.

Mr. John Carlisle: This is an important point, and my hon. Friend might know that another private Member's Bill currently going through the House, the Noise Bill, is similar in that it enables local authorities to use powers, which, I hope, will be passed by this place. Perhaps the whole tone of the Bill gives some credence to local authorities. They are many and varied by definition. Whether they ignore existing byelaws we do not know, but I fear that the good intentions of my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Hunter) may well be scuppered by environmental health officers throughout the land, and that his excellent Bill, with reservations, will be totally ignored by the local authorities.

Mr. Jenkin: I am absolutely in favour of central Government devolving more powers to local authorities wherever we can. In the past 20 or 30 years, there has, perhaps, been too much power coming in our direction and not enough going in the other direction. We need to look carefully at what additional powers we can give local authorities that we can expect them to exercise responsibly.

I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will consider the interface between my two last points: how much local authorities exercise their existing powers responsibly and effectively, and the issue of sporting dogs, and in particular hunting with hounds. Will local authorities vexatiously exercise powers under the Bill to frustrate the legitimate activities of local hunts, shoots or anything of that nature? I very much hope that my hon. Friend will address those points.

Mr. Hargreaves: It is not simply a sporting argument. My hon. Friend referred to woodland. In Birmingham,

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there is quite a large area of council-owned woodland. It is amenity land. I refer to the woodland--Moseley bog--that is adjacent to my house in Hall Green. It is ecologically important. It is a genuine bog in the middle of a city. One could not reasonably classify it as wood for woodland purposes. It is not an area where one would find children roaming; it is covered in brambles, thickets, thorns, and so on, but it is woodland none the less. Will it come under the remit of the Bill?

Mr. Jenkin: Council-owned land is already included in the scope of existing byelaws. Councils already have those powers. That is what slightly confuses me about the Bill. It is time to hear from my hon. Friend the Minister.

Mr. Patrick Thompson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way, particularly as he was about to sit down. He referred to local government byelaws. One of my local authorities, Broadland district council, has said that the Bill will remove the difficulty that local authorities experience in obtaining approval for byelaws and give them far greater discretion and flexibility. Local authorities see the present situation as complex and difficult. I hope that my hon. Friend will at least acknowledge that before he sits down.

Mr. Jenkin: I certainly acknowledge that. Nevertheless, we must not put powers into the hands of local authorities that politically correct authorities could use vexatiously and irresponsibly. I look forward to hearing my hon. Friend the Minister.

11.30 am

Mr. John Carlisle: I hate to disappoint my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester, North (Mr. Jenkin), but I shall not keep my hon. Friend the Minister waiting too long. He has graciously said that he will allow me to speak before he does.

Shortly after being elected to the House 17 years ago, I found myself in that place where gentlemen Members find it necessary to go to relieve themselves, standing next to an old Conservative knight of the shires who asked me my name and rank. He also asked how long I had been in the House, to which the answer was, "Two days." He said, "My boy, let me give you one word of advice: avoid two subjects--dogs and planning." On refection, and having listened to some of the altercations among some of my hon. Friends this morning, I think that he may have been right. What a pity that no Opposition Members are interested in this important subject--apart from the hon. Member for North-West Durham (Ms Armstrong), who has gallantly sat on the Opposition Front Bench, although she has been in and out of the Chamber from time to time.

This is an important subject, but also one that many of us would desperately try to avoid. One of my early experiences in my Luton constituency was being confronted by the late Barbara Woodhouse--an enthusiast for dogs, as everybody will know--who had certain methods and advice for training dogs and horses. She reminded me of my constituency responsibilities, because at that time there were dogs running through some of the local supermarkets stealing the sausages--they were probably made of pork, even then. I remember trying to dissuade Mrs. Woodhouse from her theory that the dogs could be so well trained that they could run through a supermarket without stealing anything off the shelves.

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This is a heavy political subject, which affects all of us. I have considered my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Hunter) as just that, an honourable friend, for many years, and I have spoken in his constituency, but I must tell him of my suspicion that the Bill is urban based rather than rural based.

At this moment, although possibly not after the general election, I have the advantage of representing a mixed constituency. I hasten to add, to reassure my hon. Friends, that I shall still be here after the election, but the boundary commissioners have decided that the rural side of my constituency should be hived off to another hon. Member. Obviously my majority may suffer by a penny or two, but no more than that. I now represent a very mixed constituency, so it is apt for me to make a few remarks on the Bill, and express a few reservations, which have also been expressed by some of my hon. Friends, about some aspects of it.

I share the reservations that have been expressed about giving powers to local authorities. Unfortunately, like many of my hon. Friends, I cannot say that I am especially proud of the local authority that represents me where I live in Bedfordshire, and my constituents too. On the whole, it is a free-spending authority, intent on using the powers that this place has perhaps rather foolishly given it. I fret a little that however anxious we are about giving direction, as my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester, North said, the powers given by the House will be misinterpreted by local authorities, which will also probably say that they have not got the resources to implement them.

That is why it is rather sad that the Opposition Benches are so bereft of Members this morning; Opposition Members are always jumping up screaming and shouting for more money to implement any worthy Bill that Conservative Members may see fit to introduce.

I shall comment briefly on two of the amendments--No. 19, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Bromsgrove (Mr. Thomason) and No. 12, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle (Mr. Leigh). Amendment No. 19 would insert the words:

"a bridleway or public footpath".

That is important. As I said in an earlier intervention, a bridleway is traditionally a place where horses travel. There are many horse owners in this country, although not as many as there are dog owners, and they would find it difficult if their use of bridleways were restricted.

There are now problems with four-wheel-drive vehicles on bridleways--a great source of contention. Indeed, bridleways are almost being changed in character. Traditionally, the bridleway is somewhere for people to ride, sometimes with their dogs. It is not unusual to see people out on horses or ponies with a dog in attendance, sometimes close by and sometimes running a little way off.

When people use bridleways they know that they will not come across a bicycle, especially a mountain bike--one of the greatest scourges of modern leisure in the countryside--and that they can walk with absolute confidence, in the knowledge that they will not be mown down by any mechanised vehicle. They may be mown down by a racing horse or pony, or even by a running dog, but of course those are natural obstacles that people engaged in such leisure pursuits may find.