House of Commons
Monday 25 March 1996
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Madam Speaker in the Chair]
Oral Answers to Questions
DUCHY OF LANCASTER
Deregulation
1. Mr. Alan W. Williams: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what assessment he has made of the effects of deregulation on employment protection rights for employees in small businesses. [20676]
The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr. Michael Heseltine): Essential employment protection rights must be safeguarded. But removing unnecessary burdens on employers reduces barriers to growth and to flexibility. The Government would give full consideration to all the issues before making any proposals.
Mr. Williams: Does the Deputy Prime Minister still have the same faith in deregulation when exactly that policy, when applied to the animal rendering industry, produced bovine spongiform encephalopathy in the 1980s and the crisis that we now face, which could cost £10 billion or £20 billion and untold numbers of human lives? Should not the interests of the consumer and public health always override those of the producer?
The Deputy Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman will realise the serious way in which the Government are dealing with the issue. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health and my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food will make statements on our latest views later this afternoon. It does no good for the hon. Gentleman to produce a range of statistics, which can only raise public concern, when it would be better to judge the issue against the scientific evidence on which the Government take decisions.
Mr. Stephen: My right hon. Friend will be aware that many thousands of people work in small businesses that depend on the beef industry. Does he agree that the press and the broadcast media are behaving like a bunch of hysterical old women over the current beef scare? Does he remember the egg scare, which cost many thousands of jobs? Does he remember the panic over AIDS? Does he remember the flesh-creeping microbe which was going to wipe out the entire population? Does he agree that the British people do not want to live in a nanny state? They want to have the facts, but they want to decide for themselves whether they and their children should eat beef.
The Deputy Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising the issue. Although all of us in the House recognise that, in a democratic society, the press have responsibilities properly to question such matters, it must be highly questionable whether taking worst case scenarios, and presenting them in headlines as though they are likely scenarios, serves the public interest.
Mr. Mandelson: Should not the right hon. Gentleman recognise the difference between deregulation to cut out unnecessary red tape in business and deregulation that puts at risk people's safety, health and peace of mind? The current beef crisis started with the scrapping of Labour's regulations on the content of cattle feed. Key safety recommendations made following the Clapham rail crash have been dropped in the run-up to privatisation. Last week, the Government were forced to scrap their deregulation of children's play schemes in the wake of the Dunblane tragedy. When will the Government realise that their responsibility is to help and protect people, not hurt them and leave them prey to unscrupulous individuals and crude market forces?
The Deputy Prime Minister: That intervention is contemptible--even by the standards that the hon. Gentleman has made his own. The Government are paying the most serious attention to public safety: we are not prepared to prejudice public safety through our deregulation initiative. It would do the House far more credit to listen to what my right hon. Friend and my right hon. and learned Friend will say in under an hour's time based on the latest scientific advice that they shall report to the House.
2. Mr. Jenkin: To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he will make a statement about the co-ordination of policy on deregulation and the best way to transpose EC directives into United Kingdom law. [20677]
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Roger Freeman): The best way to implement EC directives into United Kingdom law is that which imposes the least burden on business and others affected, while fully meeting our legal obligations.
Mr. Jenkin: Has my right hon. Friend become aware of the tendency to gold plate European directives when transposing them into United Kingdom law? Is he aware also that that tendency is driven by the legal basis on which directives are drawn up? It is safer for British officials to over-implement rather than under-implement directives and find themselves before the courts being prosecuted under European law. Should we not address the issue of the interface between European and domestic laws in order to sustain effective deregulation?
Mr. Freeman: The civil service and Ministers can best effect European directives by ensuring that they are written clearly in appropriate parliamentary language--it may not always be possible simply to copy out the original directive. It is possible to avoid what my hon. Friend describes as gold plating by ensuring that the language used in the text of any implemented United Kingdom legislation is clear, does not go beyond the purpose of the original directive and prevents misinterpretation and extension by the European Court of Justice.
Mr. Spearing: Can the Minister assure us that, if any European Community directive is more lax than the existing United Kingdom regulations, it is within the terms of the treaty for Her Majesty's Government to make our statutory instruments stricter than the original directive? Does the Minister agree that that is necessary because any regulation should be a protection for some and an obligation on others?
Mr. Freeman: I agree that it is important to ensure that, where regulations protect the consumer or the traveller and uphold health and safety standards, Parliament should decide the appropriate standard in most cases. Other countries may have domestic laws that impose lower standards. As to European directives, we should ensure that we sometimes take the opportunity to reform and repeal existing legislation. I draw the hon. Gentleman's attention to the recent changes in trade mark legislation: we repealed our legislation and introduced a new, common European standard which will save some £60 million per annum.
Mr. Ian Bruce: Does my right hon. Friend agree that we will face enormous problems in this country trying to implement the 48 hours work directive--leaving aside the question whether Madam Speaker would be able to continue to do her job? At the weekend, I spoke to people who are drilling for oil in the waters off my constituency, and they said that the regulations would make it impossible for them to do their job. One of the ways of ensuring that stupid regulations such as that are not imposed on the United Kingdom is for the Government to insist that every other partner country imposes those stupid regulations also; I think that other member states would then come to their senses.
Mr. Freeman: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend that there should be equal enforcement among all European Union member states. That enforcement should be even-handed and proportionate to the risks or the problems involved. I favour drawing attention to other countries, Governments and ministries that are not enforcing existing laws in a uniform and a fair manner.
Official Hospitality
3. Mr. Tony Banks: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister how much his office has spent on official hospitality during the current financial year. [20678]
The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of Public Service (Mr. David Willetts): The answer is £5,100.
Mr. Banks: I realise that the Deputy Prime Minister has a lot of sorrows to drown, as he is always the political bridesmaid, but is that not rather a lot of money to spend wassailing at public expense? Would the Deputy Prime Minister have had a celebratory party if his advice to the Cabinet not to let the public know about the connection between mad cow disease and the human food chain had been agreed to? Would he have had a party and, if he had, would he have been serving beef chipolatas on sticks?
Mr. Willetts: The Deputy Prime Minister's personal office spent £3,486 of that, largely on two dinners at Lancaster house, where I do not know what was served.
As regards the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's question, he should not believe all the mad speculation that he reads in the press.Deregulation
4. Mr. Nigel Evans: To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what recent representations he has received concerning the impact of his deregulation initiative on small businesses. [20679]
Mr. Freeman: We announced a package of new deregulation measures on 11 March in direct response to the concerns raised by small businesses. The package has been widely welcomed by them. It includes a single notification point for tax and national insurance for new businesses, new rights for business in enforcement actions and a pilot scheme to provide at local authority level a single point of reference for development approvals.
Mr. Evans: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the Government should protect our small businesses from unnecessary rules and regulations that weigh heavily and on their profitability are of little or no benefit to consumers? Does he further agree that small businesses created an extra 1 million-plus jobs in the 1980s and that, if we lift those unnecessary burdens from them, small businesses will create the extra jobs that we need for the future?
Mr. Freeman: I agree with my hon. Friend absolutely. The Conservative party is the party of small business men and women, and so far our deregulation policies have been successful in reducing the burdens on small businesses. I draw my hon. Friend's attention in particular to a new initiative announced recently by my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister for a new information technology system, the prototype of which is on trial throughout the country, to bring together in a single information point details of all legislation and regulations affecting small businesses. That will be a great step forward and will help the creation of more small businesses.
Ms Eagle: In the light of revelations about bovine spongiform encephalopathy, is it not time that the Government stopped pressing ahead with their ideological obsession with deregulation when, by allowing the remnants of animals to be fed to other animals, they have made what may have been a cause for concern into a great cause for concern and possibly destroyed the beef industry in the process? When will the Government realise that deregulation sometimes puts people's lives at risk and causes more expense in the long term? It is about time they apologised to the British people for their disgraceful behaviour.
Mr. Freeman: Although it is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Meat Hygiene Service, it has always been the view of all Government Departments that we need--and we have--high-quality, cost-effective enforcement of the existing regulations.
Mr. Anthony Coombs: Has my right hon. Friend noticed the recent 3i-MORI survey of small businesses
which demonstrated the effect of over-regulation on the jobs market? No fewer than one third of the firms surveyed said that they would lay people off directly as a result of the minimum wage that the Opposition would introduce. Is my right hon. Friend aware that the figure rose to 60 per cent. in the north-east and 50 per cent. in the north-west, where unemployment needs to come down the most?
Mr. Freeman: My hon. Friend is right, not only about the minimum wage but about the jobs tax from Europe that the Opposition propose to accept when they accede to the social chapter. They are probably not aware that in Germany non-wage costs are almost twice ours and in France they are almost 50 per cent. higher than ours as a direct result of accepting the provisions for higher non-wage labour costs advanced by the European Commission and accepted by those countries.
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